Is it ok to discuss proposed beta change here?

[GreatGonzales]

(10-02-2012 03:31 AM)Ravernoth Wrote:  

(10-02-2012 03:27 AM)Harti Wrote:  

(10-02-2012 01:50 AM)GreatGonzales Wrote:  Well I guess I may as well comment on scrambler with 2 base hp.. I dunno, it's tough. I think with 1 hp Feedback is probably the weakest team, but with 2 hp they may be the best. I also think that feedback is probably the most difficult team to use effectively, which contributes to the popular conception that they are the worst team. I think they probably are, actually, but only by a very small margin. So probably I would not want to increase scrambler's hp to 2.

I wonder why that is a "popular conception" though. I always deemed the Feedback the strongest team. Until I eventually found out that Mobi was able to give Snipers a walk around the map which I prefer. But for people who want a direct, straightforward unit that's easy to set up or will save you a game one time or another - choose the Robots.

The Scrambler at 2 would mean that it's basically indestructible: When buffed, the only thing that would be able to stop it is THREE Runners or a Mobi. Soldiers would have to get right into the brain's scrambling range in order to be able to attack in the turn after. This puts him at a level that I actually call 'broken'. Since it's pretty much impossible to get rid of it before it strikes.

Provided both players are equally strong the game is less about unit advantage and more about zone control. With a three-solder-wall you could already push your opponent back step by step every turn as there's the threat of a brain right behind the line.
Bombshell gives a good area coverage but you can hardly control it due to its moving restrictions. Mobi is very expensive shifting units around and difficult to cover, too.

The math behind a scrambled unit is easy. You one-hit KO an enemy unit and get the unit onto your side of the field. You're able to attack weak spots with it. This is really strong and could completely refund your Scrambler's deployment wits. Mobi and Bombshell have a harder time doing so I would say.

But ya, maybe the Scrambler needs a little adjustment for the better. I haven't actually followed live play lately so I can't tell what's the tier 1 choice right now.
We nerfed him twice during pre-release beta so it won't be hard for us to find solutions to it. I think we should keep it at 1 base health but the scrambled unit should keep its health.

Hey Harti,

How about a simple compromise:

The scrambled unit is reduced to 2 HP if it is above 2 HP (or 3 HP if we want a bigger buff).

That would strengthen the scrambler a little, but not too much.

I like the idea of allowing scrambled units to keep more/all of their health, that would be a smaller buff than increasing hp to 2 in my opinion. Some flavor of that might be what's needed for balance.

Harti, one thing I didn't see you mention when you compared the scrambler to the mobi and bombshell is that the scrambler has to be on the front lines of battle in order to be utilized, thus basically gauranteeing, in many cases, that the Feedback player will lose their scrambler in the counterattack. This is not as often the case with Mobi and bombshell, but I agree that besides that (large, important point), the scrambler math is in its favor over the other two specials - 1 hit KOs are pretty awesome in outwitters, and to also gain a new unit at the same time is incredibly useful.

[blckace]

so the viable options are

1 base health but the scrambled unit keeps its health

2 base health without being healable up to three, 1hp take over

?

[Harti]

@GreatGonzales:
So you think that a 3 HP Scrambler will survive a counterattack made by the opponent? I don't think so. Usually they're in deep Sniper range by that time. It's a kamikaze unit any way you turn it (except when your base is at stake and you can build one to get out of peril, but even then it's usually more kamikaze than defensive). To really make it better you'd have to remove the HP reduction.
Whenever you brought enough wits and a Medic, the Scrambler actually often turned the tides. The problem is very often the former - insufficient wits.

[GreatGonzales]

(10-02-2012 04:59 AM)Harti Wrote:  @GreatGonzales:
So you think that a 3 HP Scrambler will survive a counterattack made by the opponent? I don't think so. Usually they're in deep Sniper range by that time. It's a kamikaze unit any way you turn it (except when your base is at stake and you can build one to get out of peril, but even then it's usually more kamikaze than defensive). To really make it better you'd have to remove the HP reduction.
Whenever you brought enough wits and a Medic, the Scrambler actually often turned the tides. The problem is very often the former - insufficient wits.

Actually I was talking about a 2 hp scrambler (1 base hp boosted), but yeah, I do think having 3 hp significantly increases the scrambler's chances of surviving a counterattack. It certainly makes the feedback player's job a lot easier. My point was strictly to compare the mobi/bombshell to the scrambler on the survivability criteria - the other two specials are much easier to "use" while also keeping them alive. And I think that's important. But, you have to weigh that against the function of the unit, and I agree with you that the scrambler's ability is probably the most powerful of the three.

As for 3 hp (2 base hp boosted) scrambler, I think that's probably overpowered, for the reasons you've already mentioned.

[ArtNJ]

Scrambler, Mobi and Bombshell can win games as is, but do not always do so. They seem roughly balanced to me. Maybe one is generally a little better, or not, but its close enough that it probably varies by map and situation and strategy.

I do have some doubts about the Bramble though. I think it will end up needing something more.

[GoHeat 3]

(10-02-2012 05:46 AM)ArtNJ Wrote:  I do have some doubts about the Bramble though. I think it will end up needing something more.

What about if when you attacked the Bramble, the attacker will lose one hp?

[Necrocat219]

(10-02-2012 06:25 AM)GoHeat 3 Wrote:  

(10-02-2012 05:46 AM)ArtNJ Wrote:  I do have some doubts about the Bramble though. I think it will end up needing something more.

What about if when you attacked the Bramble, the attacker will lose one hp?

That could be nice for balance, but the problem we are having is that after you create it it takes a few turn for it to have an effect on the game.

[Harti]

Have no worries, we'll tweak the Bramble until it's balanced with the other Specials. Just like there are maps where the Bombshell shines, the Bramble will probably have maps for that as well.