P2 Avoiding Medic loss on Glitch and Peekaboo

[Necrocat219]

(02-23-2013 11:04 PM)W1cked21 Wrote:  I personnaly do a protecting opening without any runner. I think runner is a waste of time on one spawn maps, especially peekaboo where soldiers are extremely important. (believe me, I got a 16-win streak on peekaboo aha)

I put my heavy on the wit space, then put the medic one hex forward, create a soldier, health it, and with it and the predeployed soldier I make a bareer. Check my replays on OSN when I'm P2

Edit: lol, I say the opposite of necrocat I consider it's better to create a runner after 10 or 15 turns, when there is something to see. What do you see at turn 4? Two soldiers? Wow, gratz.

Meh, I don't really like to turtle, I usually have one runner permanently by turn 3 which allows you to adapt to various alterations of normal openings and take advantage of the opponent.

[Ja Karta]

(02-23-2013 10:31 PM)vegaprom Wrote:  Thanks everyone, but what I worry is unit count on one spawn maps. If P1 rushes by spawning soldiers and move them and heavies to my base, I would get behind in unit if I spawn runners.

Utility of runners aside: You've been given two separate non-runner based strategies for each of the maps. Or is something not making sense? (Not a bad thing )

Non-Runner Openings:
Peekabo:
1) Don't move medic, but have units adjacent to the only spaces runner can attack from.
If you want to buff first turn you can trivially modify this opening so that an attack is wit neutral rather than wit positive for you.

2) Cover front of medic with deployed and spawned soldiers. (as mentioned by OutwittersFan & W1cked)

Glitch:
1) Don't move medic, but move heavy to wit space, covering both spaces runner can attack from.
Again, you can trivially modify this so that a medic kill is wit neutral, but you still buff first turn. (Move the soldier *first* in the latter case. That will allow you to see whether or not you can move the medic to your spawn safely. If not, you revert to the former case.)

2) Use Necrocat's set-up so you can revenge scramble runner for wit neutral unit advantage, but replace buffed runner in his opening with an unbuffed soldier. [Feedback only.]


If any of these aren't clear just say so.

(02-23-2013 08:55 PM)Necrocat219 Wrote:  @Ja Karta Nope your maths is right for not moving the medic, it makes it pointless to kill it. It derives you of a boost though as you say, so it isn't the most optimal move. Your opponent has a choice of killing it and if the choose not to (probably) you're slightly worse off.

Only in gifted, but whether your worse off depends on your valuation of the importance of spending a wit on a buff first turn (vs trading a soldier for a runner) and the impact of the opponent doing the same. I'm new enough that I won't make any strong claims regarding that valuation, but different high-ranked players seem to have differing opinions.

In any case, if one wants the buff first turn they can do the same thing essentially with the match making a medic kill wit and unit neutral.

[vegaprom]

outwitters://viewgame?id=ag5vdXR3aXR0ZXJzZ2FtZXIRCxIIR2FtZVJvb20Y7Mz5Agw

This is the one on Glitch I start with runner to gain vision but I lose to a rush immediately. T_T

[Ja Karta]

(02-28-2013 01:28 PM)vegaprom Wrote:  outwitters://viewgame?id=ag5vdXR3aXR0ZXJzZ2FtZXIRCxIIR2FtZVJvb20Y7Mz5Agw

This is the one on Glitch I start with runner to gain vision but I lose to a rush immediately. T_T

As only another gifted player I'll comment.

In this case you knew you were being rushed since he didn't take his wit space. Putting aside a rush specific opening:


You had two major lines of harrassment open. His wit space and his sniper (which was vulnerable to your runner through the back door). You could have taken his wit space on your second turn with your soldier.
Or used your runner and a boosted soldier to kill his runner, take his wit space, kill his medic, and force your opponent to spend wits he didn't have taking it back. Which would allow you to set up a defense.

You also turtled... strangely.
Instead of just moving your medic you moved a soldier in front of it and right in the firing line. ...and then still moved it.
You're fighting right next to your spawn. If he want's to come at you then let him come at you.
Keep your units back so any attack of his kills a small percentage and you can counter attack. The bridge and use of two slow units (sniper & heavy) means his units will be spread out in a rush. Let him feed them to you.

Do a little harassment on top of that and he's in a bad situation. At worst he has to change plans and turtle himself. A game that you'll win as Adorables.


Not sure if this helps, but here's an example from a recent P2 Glitch game that I played.

http://osn.codepenguin.com/replays/view/...20Y_-uAAww
(Not sure how you make link into a banner. Just strip osn part of link?)
Edit:
outwitters://viewgame?id=ag5vdXR3aXR0ZXJzZ2FtZXIRCxIIR2FtZVJvb20Y_-uAAww

P1 sets up to rush or blockade after he sees my scrambler come out on turn 2.
I know that he can kill the scrambler on his turn before I bring it out. But it doesn't matter. He can't move enough units to seriously threaten my base; he'd lose an attritional war far from his spawn.

And now that I know where his units are I set up to harass his wit space. Forcing him spend wits while already overextended.

There's a fair bit of scrambler usage in the game, but it's not critical to how I dealt with his attack.
Don't protect what you can't. Just make sure you can take back more.

And don't worry too much about losing a little base health in a rush. At one point I gave his heavy free access to my base. Had he attacked it he'd have just wasted an extra wit on the attack and lost the unit. No complaints.

Note also how even just moving my runner so it threatened his sniper and spawn meant he was wasting wits blocking it and separating his forces...
Note deux A lot of mistakes are made by P1 (and probably me of course, please point out any ), but I think it's a nice example of the level of play that you and I are up against as it's a gifted match.