Super-Titan Replay Discussion

[phineas94]

My promotion game! Now I can retire
outwitters://viewgame?id=ag5vdXR3aXR0ZXJzZ2FtZXIRCxIIR2FtZVJvb20Y-4b6Agw

[Mag!cGuy]

Congratz! I already saw the replay, and I can say I wouldn't like to be against you on reaper aha

[Eijolend]

Hey, I have an exciting replay I'd like to discuss, where I finally get to DO something with those Vegetables. Maybe my thoughts are useful for someone.

outwitters://viewgame?id=ag5vdXR3aXR0ZXJzZ2FtZXIRCxIIR2FtZVJvb20YlZH6Agw

In this game I try an early Bramble strategy, starting to spawn thorns as soon as Turn 5.
My opponent starts out with a lot of soldiers and no runners, so when he gets vision, the thorns are already in place.
I'm not so sure about my thorn placements on Turn 5&7, but I think the one on Turn 9 is a good place to put it, since it protects the Sniper and is only 3 thorn spawns away from the enemy wit space.

Turn 10: Mag!cGuy finally gets a runner out and sees my thorns, which causes him to reposition his Soldiers away from my witspace-side, so his later attack goes better.

Turn 15: I probably should have spawned an additional safety thorn directly from the bramble between the two obstacles in the north, so that desastrous Turn 16 move can't happen, especially since I have 1 wit left!

Turn 16-19: I thought I was done for, after I lost both my Bramble and my sniper, thankfully my opponent hadn't had enough wits left to spawn reinforcement during all this, so I come out solidly ahead in unit count after Turn 19, if you don't count the mobi. I position my Soldiers for a follow-up strike on the wit space.
I fear if he had moved his soldier first instead of the heavy on Turn 16 I might've been worse off, but he couldn't know I was wide open back there before he actually moved the soldier - so hurray FoW!

Turn 20: I question the decision to spawn a boosted Runner in this circumstance - while Mag!cGuy doesn't know exactly where my soldiers are, he probably could've guessed it. An unboosted Soldier costs the same and is much more useful for defending an attack consisting only of boosted Soldiers. The positioning of the Heavy and the Mobi was good though, as was boosting the Heavy on Turn 22, but boosting it on Turn 20 instead of the runner would've saved 2 medic-moves.

Turn 21-25 shows an important concept. When you're ahead in unit count you can afford to pull back for a turn and reinforce and then immediately jump into the fray again. While I destroy a Soldier in my first wave of attack and lose one in turn, I'm overall set back by one soldier, since I didn't get to spawn one on Turn 21, while my opponent gets one out on Turn 22. That's ok, because I'm still ahead in unit count, but I can't afford to continue throwing units at him, because of the Mobi he is much quicker to reinforce. My Heavy is slow, but a much more terrifying addition to my army than his stream of soldiers - also without it I have no good way of dealing with my opponent's boosted Heavy, since the amount of units I have is tight.
I think this is one of the few situations where a Heavy is better than a boosted Soldier - I don't have so many units, that I need the additional wits the Heavy costs to use them. A boosted Soldier probably costs less to move into the fight, but the Heavy saves me 2 wits when dealing with the big Bear. (4 instead of 6) So that makes up for the cost difference between Heavy and Soldier and the additional one or two wits it costs me to move it there and once I get rid of his Heavy, he has no good way of dealing with mine.
Notice how, the blue Heavy is in reach of my Heavy for Turn 26 - but he just can't afford to take it, since he would lose his mobi and/or his base in the process.

That was an interesting game - gg!

Feel free to comment or shout at me how wrong I am!

[Mag!cGuy]

Aha I didn't expect you to make such a big comment! I really appreciate that, much useful for me
I guess that turn 16 was RLY wrong. It has put me in a bad position, I think I should have destroyed your units instead of simply your bramble. Because, since this turn, I couldn't have as much units as you ^^
And spawning a boosted runner was useless, but the Fow has scared me and I didn't think you could bring so much soldiers ^^ Your counter attack was well done.

[Eijolend]

(02-26-2013 10:57 PM)W1cked21 Wrote:  Aha I didn't expect you to make such a big comment!

Yeah I like to discuss some of my replays in great detail - and the best thing: Since I'm back to ST, I get to haunt this thread with my walls of text again instead of the Share Your Replay Thread

[Gf!sh]

BUMP

[CombatEX]

Congratulations on the feature in your Foundry game!

(02-23-2013 12:37 AM)Eijolend Wrote:  We both agreed this is one of the craziest games we came across.
outwitters://viewgame?id=ag5vdXR3aXR0ZXJzZ2FtZXIRCxIIR2FtZVJvb20Y_9X0Agw

I have a quick question to people in general though. Do you move your medic or move your sniper to your medic (as P1 or as P2)? In the Foundry game with Eijolend, he moved his medic to heal his sniper, but I usually leave my medic there and have my sniper head towards the medic (which also pressures my opponent). We see that ..Sir3.. employs the opening that I usually use in regards to leaving the medic static. I do this as P1 and sometimes as P2 depending on whether it is safe to do so.

Moving Sniper:
+ Saves 1 wit
+ Medic can more easily access units from the bottom OR top spawn if necessary on a later turn
- More limited in the direction the sniper moves (but it moves forward anyway so it's not a big deal)
- Medic not next to spawn

Moving Medic:
+ Medic next to spawn
+ Slightly more freedom in the direction the sniper moves
- Medic is limited to healing units at or near the bottom spawn
- Costs 1 wit

The fact that my medic isn't next to my spawn doesn't really matter in my games though since it is in a decent enough position to stop a soldier next to it on the way to the action without wasting movement (probably I lose out on one movement space by taking a slight detour with my soldier, but 5 movement vs 6 after two turns doesn't usually matter).

More importantly, by not moving the medic for the first few turns, I can still move it later once I've seen how my opponent has opened. This way I can make a more informed decision as to where it is most needed or if I can even just leave it where it is. In general I don't like using wits when it isn't necessary early on and prefer making more informed decisions after I've seen what my opponent is doing. However, this is not to say that the medic move opening is worse. There are strategies which rely on boosting particular units early which may necessitate the movement of the medic. So, this is why I'm asking what other people open with and why? I've seen other Super-Titans use both but I haven't seen an actual discussion on the reasoning behind either.

(02-26-2013 10:40 PM)Eijolend Wrote:  Hey, I have an exciting replay I'd like to discuss, where I finally get to DO something with those Vegetables. Maybe my thoughts are useful for someone.

outwitters://viewgame?id=ag5vdXR3aXR0ZXJzZ2FtZXIRCxIIR2FtZVJvb20YlZH6Agw

That was certainly an exciting game. However, do you think the Bramble was a large part of your win or simply outplaying your opponent after the Bramble died? I've seen quite a few Bramble wins, but usually the Bramble dies reasonably early and it is questionable how much the Bramble itself resulted in the win. If you had made a thorn on turn 15 as you mentioned, then perhaps we would have a better idea. As it stands, a large fraction of the end game didn't involve the Bramble so it is unclear to me just how much it ultimately contributed to your victory.

It was an entertaining replay regardless though, so thanks for sharing!

[Alvendor]

I have a hard time making bramble work in this matchup, but still got some thoughts!

(02-26-2013 10:40 PM)Eijolend Wrote:  Hey, I have an exciting replay I'd like to discuss, where I finally get to DO something with those Vegetables. Maybe my thoughts are useful for someone.

outwitters://viewgame?id=ag5vdXR3aXR0ZXJzZ2FtZXIRCxIIR2FtZVJvb20YlZH6Agw

In this game I try an early Bramble strategy, starting to spawn thorns as soon as Turn 5.
My opponent starts out with a lot of soldiers and no runners, so when he gets vision, the thorns are already in place.
I'm not so sure about my thorn placements on Turn 5&7,

Ok the thorn on turn 5 will slow him down if he goes for the witspace, but what will the thorn on turn 7 accomplish?

(02-26-2013 10:40 PM)Eijolend Wrote:  but I think the one on Turn 9 is a good place to put it, since it protects the Sniper and is only 3 thorn spawns away from the enemy wit space.

Yep, but you just moved a runner twice close to you spawn. Whenever that happens there might be a problem. Aim for only touching each unit once during opening. Not saying the move was wrong, but worth thinking about.

(02-26-2013 10:40 PM)Eijolend Wrote:  Turn 10: Mag!cGuy finally gets a runner out and sees my thorns, which causes him to reposition his Soldiers away from my witspace-side, so his later attack goes better.

Turn 15: I probably should have spawned an additional safety thorn directly from the bramble between the two obstacles in the north, so that desastrous Turn 16 move can't happen, especially since I have 1 wit left!

Agreed on 15. On 13, what about putting a thorn in front of soldiers instead?

(02-26-2013 10:40 PM)Eijolend Wrote:  My Heavy is slow, but a much more terrifying addition to my army than his stream of soldiers - also without it I have no good way of dealing with my opponent's boosted Heavy, since the amount of units I have is tight.
I think this is one of the few situations where a Heavy is better than a boosted Soldier - I don't have so many units, that I need the additional wits the Heavy costs to use them. A boosted Soldier probably costs less to move into the fight, but the Heavy saves me 2 wits when dealing with the big Bear. (4 instead of 6) So that makes up for the cost difference between Heavy and Soldier and the additional one or two wits it costs me to move it there and once I get rid of his Heavy, he has no good way of dealing with mine.
Notice how, the blue Heavy is in reach of my Heavy for Turn 26 - but he just can't afford to take it, since he would lose his mobi and/or his base in the process.

This is a big maybe for me. In general, for it to work you have to be confident you can kill his heavy before he kills yours. In that case you can do it but it's a very advanced play!

Nice to see some veggie wins for a change!

[phineas94]

(02-26-2013 09:45 PM)W1cked21 Wrote:  Congratz! I already saw the replay, and I can say I wouldn't like to be against you on reaper aha

Thanks W1cked, I lucked out and guessed right a few times, agonised over a few moves but it was a nice game to get promotion on I obviously won't be playing anyone soon as I just watch the replay for the next couple of weeks

[Mag!cGuy]

(02-27-2013 05:02 AM)phineas94 Wrote:  

(02-26-2013 09:45 PM)W1cked21 Wrote:  Congratz! I already saw the replay, and I can say I wouldn't like to be against you on reaper aha

Thanks W1cked, I lucked out and guessed right a few times, agonised over a few moves but it was a nice game to get promotion on I obviously won't be playing anyone soon as I just watch the replay for the next couple of weeks

This is wise, I launch a bunch of games because I'm happy to battle titan, but now I ONLY lose. Seems I still didn't understand I'm fighting with the best players pf this game and continue to think 5 sec before playing. x)