P2 Avoiding Medic loss on Glitch and Peekaboo

[vegaprom]

In these 2 maps occasionally I lose the medic at turn3 as P2 because P1 spawns a runner at the first turn and put it in a position I cannot see even if I spawn a runner too.

In Glitch, if I move my medic to near the spawn point (so that I don't have to move my medic twice), i often lose my medic to a runner. I know to counter this if the runner was used to capture wit space by placing a soldier over the runner but some players take wit space with heavy and place a runner in a slightly different hex.

In Peekaboo as P2, I always lose my medic at turn3 if my opponent spawns a runner no matter what unless I spawn a runner too and kill them. but to make matters worse, sometimes I cannot see the spawned runner even if I spawn a runner.

In my opinion, I don't enjoy spawning runner early in one-spawn map because I might get behind in unit count if P1 doesn't harass my medic but get units ready for attack. Need some advice, how to open effectively without losing my medic or get behind in unit count provided that he set up soldiers for attack and doesn't harass my medic early.

Thanks

[joelduque]

Spawn runner.

[OutwittersFan422]

In Glitch anticipate this and spawn accordingly also consider moving your soldier forward to gain more vision (watch out for snipers though)

and in the case of Peakaboo I cant understand how this is a problem assuming you take the wit with your heavy and then spawn a runner or a soldier for that matter there should be no way you could lose your medic turn 3

[Norahsul]

Spawn runner n have vision n hide medic accordingly
On glitch I have a good place to place runner n can see the medic movement so I take down medic as soon as I can

[Ryzuma]

Play feedback more on glitch. They will never take your medic again

[Ja Karta]

Was looking at various strats recently myself. If you look at some ST replays you'll see some ways things are dealt with >90% of the time that means spawning a runner (at least on Glitch).
You'll need one eventually anyway and it does help you get a special out that much sooner. Not so terrible.

But you *don't* have to protect your medic. You just have to protect your resources.
On Peekaboo, for example, I don't move my medic the first turn. Spawn a soldier and leave him there. Move/leave the non-capping unit beneath the closest central column (I prefer heavy, because it centralizes him and he has low move).
Both things I'd do anyway (important!).


So what happens if they kill my medic with a runner? It's wit positive.
+1 for Runner -2 for Medic +2 for runner moves -0 for Soldier/Heavy kill & move [they don't move] -0 for Medic move [same]
Net: +1 wit difference
(a whopping +2 and lost turn of buff if they boosted the runner; which happens in the gifted leagues, not relevant to higher leagues I'm pretty sure)

Because I didn't have to move my units to kill the runner the exchange is actually wit efficient for me. And it has no effect on unit count. It's unit count neutral. If you moved your medic first it would be wit neutral. (discounting early spying utility, which is generally slim) If you moved your medic and had to move units somewhere you wouldn't otherwise put them to retaliate then the outcome would be wit negative.

The downside is that you don't buff a unit on your first turn, but I'm okay with that. I'll take an unbuffed soldier over a buffed runner in a rush generally and I'll not take a 2/3 wit buff (effectively) on a harass.


You could use the same strategy for glitch (take with heavy, don't move medic on first turn), but I currently prefer to use an even awesomer strategy that I shamelessly lifted from a Necrocat replay (I actually reviewed a few ST replays because nothing satisfactory jumped out at me awhile back). It only works for Feedback though. [Edit: I assume this is what Ryzuma was referring to above me.]

http://osn.codepenguin.com/replays/view/...20YvabWAgw

(I didn't really like the cap with a 1hp runner approach that most P2 glitch openings use. The runner generally got ganked pretty early it seemed and it just wasn't especially exciting. : )


More experienced players please feel free to correct my math or thinking if you think I've made a mistake. Danke.

[Necrocat219]

You'll find that a lot of opening start off by opening with the runner. A lot of players to find out where discrete runners could be move their predeployed soldier forward for vision although personally I don't like that much. The main two I use are:

-move medic to spawn
-spawn runner
-move runner in front of medic
-boost runner/heavy
-move heavy wit space

This is the opening Ja Karta suggested which has the idea that if your opponent does take out your medic then you can follow it up with a scramble for some advantage. Boosting the runner means that your scrambler is completely safe when converting from that base-hugging hex. Boosting the Heavy is my favourite now though which I don't think I've posted a replay of. Having a 2hp boosted runner in that position will mean you will have to move it vs adorables (soldier hit-n-run) so if they choose not to kill your medic you could have problems. With a heavy boost you have to be careful not to have your scrambler caught out turn 5; on turn 3 P1 can spawn a runner and get it in range of the scrambler ready to kill it with another runner the next turn. In this case moving the pre-dep soldier after conversion solves this.

-move medic to spawn
-spawn soldier
-move soldier in front of medic
-heal heavy/soldier
-move heavy to wit space

Personally I use this opening way too much, I love that space for a soldier in particular as it's much less vulnerable to snipers later on. If the opponent takes out the medic revenge-killing the medic is a +0 and gives you the option of spawning and moving the medic to the other side but for cheaper.

@Ja Karta Nope your maths is right for not moving the medic, it makes it pointless to kill it. It derives you of a boost though as you say, so it isn't the most optimal move. Your opponent has a choice of killing it and if the choose not to (probably) you're slightly worse off.

There are lots of different opening variations btw, I try to mix it up still, but these are the ones I find most reliable.

[vegaprom]

Thanks everyone, but what I worry is unit count on one spawn maps. If P1 rushes by spawning soldiers and move them and heavies to my base, I would get behind in unit if I spawn runners.

On Glitch, I "used to" move my medic next to the spawn and boost the heavy, after that, capture the wit space with heavy and spawn soldier. It can guard the medic again runner only if he used the runner to capture wit space. Now I change tactics my placing medic low down to the base but can still boost the heavy, but that waste another wit moving the medic.

On Peekaboo, I generally take a wit space with soldier and sometimes I spawn runner to gain vision. However, some players are tricky enough not to place the runner in the middle of the map but "six" space from spawn point so that I cannot see it. If I move my medic next to the spawn and spawn soldier then put him and the predeployed to block access to the medic, I may lose if there's no medic harassment but he attack my wit space instead.

I think there're various tactics on both these 2 maps opening (fortunately not happen on SFI and Reaper), it depends that the attacking strategy and defending strategy is the same or not.

[Necrocat219]

As the game had moved on top players have realized that taking out the music has become less and less crutial to winning. Also, remember that runners are always important to double- guess your opponents moves. It might be that Adorables in particular are giving you a hard time with runner hit and run, I'm not sure. But if your opponent is spawning a runner spawning 1 in response shouldn't put you behind anyway.

[Mag!cGuy]

I personnaly do a protecting opening without any runner. I think runner is a waste of time on one spawn maps, especially peekaboo where soldiers are extremely important. (believe me, I got a 16-win streak on peekaboo aha)

I put my heavy on the wit space, then put the medic one hex forward, create a soldier, health it, and with it and the predeployed soldier I make a bareer. Check my replays on OSN when I'm P2

Edit: lol, I say the opposite of necrocat I consider it's better to create a runner after 10 or 15 turns, when there is something to see. What do you see at turn 4? Two soldiers? Wow, gratz.