Scrambler Balance?

[Katastrophe]

Well yes, there is the issue that your scrambled unit becomes a "one hit wonder", making the only logical targets to be the big hitters - Snipers, Heavys and Ubers. These are also typically the most protected units.

The point I was trying to make with the Runners was incomplete. I typically don't move my Medics away from my spawn unless I've gained a clear advantage and can set a forward rally point, so to speak. If he sends out a random Runner and spots my Scrambler, worst case scenario he hits it and, on his next turn, throws in another and kills it. What will most likely happen is he knows it there and can easily send two to flank it, or something more effective.

You literally have to hide your Scrambler until the last second where as the Bombshell just sets down and shouts "Come at me, bro!"

[garcia1000]

I notice that you said "it took a lot of soldiers to scramble that bombshell, I don't even want to see how many wits that took"

You could consider also calculating the opponent's wit cost. For example, I am pretty sure that a deployed bombshell costs 8 wit minimum. That might be a lot of wits.

Anyway my suggestion for the others is that Mobi can probably be 3HP instead of 2HP. I mean that fat whale whatever
Don't really have good suggestions for Scrambler.

[Katastrophe]

(10-24-2012 10:20 AM)garcia1000 Wrote:  I notice that you said "it took a lot of soldiers to scramble that bombshell, I don't even want to see how many wits that took"

You could consider also calculating the opponent's wit cost. For example, I am pretty sure that a deployed bombshell costs 8 wit minimum. That might be a lot of wits.

That's... not at all what I said, but okay.

But okay, 8 Wit to spawn and set up a Bombshell.
I'm not going to watch the replay again but I'm sure he had 3-5 Soldiers escorting that Scrambler and so that's at least a 13-17 Wit cost just to spawn the units.

Assuming it's just "spawn and slap"...

Bombshell:
7 Wit to spawn.
1 Wit to set-up.
1 Wit to fire.
Total: 9 Wit

At 3 damage to the target and 1 to all surrounding enemies, that's 3 - 9 damage, not including the number of targets that affects. That's anywhere from 33-100% Damage per Wit.

Scrambler:
7 Wit to spawn.
1 Wit to kill.
Total: 8 Wit

That's 8 Wit to do a max of 5 damage to a single target. That's only 62.5% Damage per Wit, and I'm not even counting the number of Wit it costs to move into position, let alone guard.

Also, when you add in to the fact that the prevailing strategy is to turtle, clump together, AoE damage is invaluable. You have no idea how many times I wish that the Feedback's Heavy unit actually hit adjacent units when he spins around like that.


The issue is that unlike Hero Academy, each race is identical except for a single unit... a single unit who's ability varies greatly. However, when the core for each army is the same, the strategy for each becomes the same and one of those single unit's abilities will be better suited for the job - and that's the Bombshell. I'd rather have seen each army have it's own abilities like Hero Academy, but I figure it's too late for the dev's to make each army unique. The combination that each army is damn near identical and that the starting army has the best uber unit is probably why OML is seeing such minimal sales figures.

That said, the built-in League and the complete removal of randomness is why I prefer this game. It's a shame because each game is so good yet neither is perfect, yet both have the ability to be perfect.

I got off topic there...

[terenceshiu2005]

(10-24-2012 07:31 AM)Joggies Wrote:  Sound's like you haven't had your booty whooped by a scrambler yet ;-)

I like your post and the discussion and thought I might give you another way to look at the economic value of the scrambler.

Lets say you build one, move it once or twice and take a soldier. That cost you 9-10 wits. But you effectively killed a solider (worth 2 wits, plus at least one movement point invested in it, and quite possibly buffed). Not only that but you gained a soldier with 1hp. Let's call that worth 2 witpoint to you (it's damaged, but it is also deployed). So you've just earned 5-7 back on your investment minimum. You can see that even a reckless suicide mission with a scrambler makes about three quarters of its value back. Now used sensibly, it can really make stunning returns. If you can take a juicy prize, or somehow protect it to take a small prize and live another day you are laughing.

And that's just the offensive side. They are probably at their most wicked defensively. It can be pretty daunting trying to attack an area with a couple of those scrambly spiders lurking...

I totally agreed what Joggies' said. I have losen most of my games to the players who use scrambler WELL. I didn't use it because I don't have talent on it. May be you can take a look of the below matches in super-titan replay. you can find tips of using scrambler.

[Sharkfood Island] [***] vide0gamer (F) vs awpertunity (S)
[Glitch] [***] Alvendor (F) vs Sir3 (F)

[CombatEX]

I thought I should add that the current top 2 players mostly use Feedback so that must count for something. (p1noyboypj mentioned how he mainly uses Feedback in a post on the beta forums)

What may be true is that fewer people know how to use the Scrambler properly, but that doesn't mean it is underpowered as quite a few top players have great success with it.

[richiebo 2]

You know how i use them? I sneak them up to their heavy that is near their base, use it, hit their base. Bam.

[terenceshiu2005]

(10-24-2012 11:24 AM)CombatEX Wrote:  I thought I should add that the current top 2 players mostly use Feedback so that must count for something. (p1noyboypj mentioned how he mainly uses Feedback in a post on the beta forums)

What may be true is that fewer people know how to use the Scrambler properly, but that doesn't mean it is underpowered as quite a few top players have great success with it.

Scrambler is the most dangerous special unit in 1v1 if use it properly, but seldom players use it well. Vide0gamer is another excellent player to use scrambler.... be carefully...

[Katastrophe]

(10-24-2012 11:19 AM)terenceshiu2005 Wrote:  I totally agreed what Joggies' said. I have losen most of my games to the players who use scrambler WELL. I didn't use it because I don't have talent on it. May be you can take a look of the below matches in super-titan replay. you can find tips of using scrambler.

[Sharkfood Island] [***] vide0gamer (F) vs awpertunity (S)
[Glitch] [***] Alvendor (F) vs Sir3 (F)

That game on Sharkfood Island is the one I was referring to in my previous posts. I'll watch the one on Glitch in a second, thanks.

(10-24-2012 11:25 AM)richiebo 2 Wrote:  You know how i use them? I sneak them up to their heavy that is near their base, use it, hit their base. Bam.

Again, that's the risk/reward mechanic. If you can pull it off, great. If not, you just flushed 7+ Wit.

[CombatEX]

I just read your basic wit analysis and the problem is you really can't look at it like that. First of all just a minor error. The scrambler also converts a unit so you can think of that as reducing the cost of the scrambler in that you can either see the scrambled unit as something you otherwise would have spent wits on or a unit that your opponent has to spend wits to kill. Either way, you gain a few wits from that scrambled unit.

Let's say you get 1 wit from that since your opponent has to at the very least spend a wit attacking the scrambled unit.

Now the scrambler is at 71.4% versus the bombshell 33-100%. In general I don't see bombshells doing more around 3-5 damage per shot. In this case the percentages are as follows:

Scrambler 71.4%, Bombshell 33-55.6%

This is deceiving though since the bombshell will likely get to be use more than once. So let's say you do 6-10 damage with a bombshell over two shots, the numbers now look like this:

Scrambler 71.4%, Bombshell 60-100%

These numbers are just extremely rough estimates anyway, so I wouldn't put too much weight on them, but the point is it doesn't even look that bad for the scrambler even if you choose to put emphasis on these percentages.

Another issue which we didn't even bring into the calculation is movement. If you ever want to move the bombshell, it costs three wits to reposition while a scrambler never loses 2 wits from having to setup and take down.

The main point though is that it's not all about wits. The scrambler can cause disorder behind enemy lines. When you poke a hole into an enemy's wall with a scrambler, the scrambled unit can still move and attack. This is huge as you can now use that scrambled unit to do anything from attacking the otherwise out-of-reach base to killing off key units like snipers. Even without using a scrambler, the fact that you have one or could have one causes your opponent to position units in sub-optimal ways so as not to suffer extreme losses from a scrambler attack. The scrambler provides some very unique possibilities that may not be obvious at first glance. For example, using a scrambler you can attack further away than with any other unit or special. If you scramble a runner, you can essentially attack 9 spaces away from where your scrambler initially was. With a soldier? 7 spaces away. There's much more to the scrambler than is seen at first glance.

[Katastrophe]

Posting from my phone and still formatting for font size, like a boss.

I agree that in certain situations, the Scrambler can be the most effective. However, I still feel like overall, the Bombshell is far more useful over a longer period of time especially with the current state of the meta game. Due to the Scrambler's frailty and power, once it's shown, it's an immediate target. It reminds me of the Ninja from Hero Academy in that its VERY strong but very frail. That's matched with one of the largest movements in the game as well as the ability to swap with another unit, to teleport away.

Perhaps it's just how I play... I sort of enjoy the meta game of Outwitters because it somewhat reminds me of how I play as Zerg in StarCraft 2 - very reactive and punishing.

This game is the latest one I completed and doesn't really illustrate an opportunity where I simply chose not to use a Scrambler. Instead, it shows how I play - reactive, and often with a lot of smaller units. I don't have any games completed that show how I play...

I'll edit this in a second with a screenshot of one of my current games.
Screenshot

As you see, I'm pretty much constantly pumping out Soldiers from each point, upgrading them, and moving them. That's 8 Wit per turn alone. On occasion, and because of my Wit limits, that changes. Sometimes I'll use Runners to sacrifice for scouts, sometimes I'll add in a Sniper if I'm seeing an attack coming. The gist is that on every turn, I'm cranking out units and sending them to the front. I rarely have the Wit built up to bring out a Scrambler, although it has happened. But at that point, I'm already set to win the game. It's just insurance.