Scrambler Balance?

[Katastrophe]

Hello everyone.

I've been playing Outwitters for only a few days, although I've already purchased the Uber Pack and the extra games. Games like this and Hero Academy are hands down my favorites to play. When ArtNJ posted on the Hero Academy League forum about this game, I had to check it out and I'm not disappointed. While I dislike that the teams only differ based on aesthetics and their uber unit, I like how the game is far more strategic and less random than Hero Academy. This game can be very unforgiving for those who aren't sure what they're doing, something I found out the hard way.

What's interesting is that I play as Feedback, and I do this for one reason: they look the best. I have used the Scrambler two times, once to test it and again to quickly take over a Bombshell my opponent had fortified on his own spawn point to win the game quickly. Aside from that one instant, I feel that the Scrambler is completely useless.

Has their been previous discussion about balance between these uber units? Bombshell seems to be the hand down victory when it comes to which is best. A 3 Life unit, long range, and AoE damage? Absolutely insane. I haven't used the Adorables, nor have I see the Mobi in action, but after reading the forums it seems like it's only truly useful in 2v2 for joining your forces and quickly moving power units.

And the Scrambler... has an average movement, 1 Life, and a range of 1. While it can outright 'kill' any unit (and if used on a deployed Bombshell, it retains it's 3 Armor Life), it's extremely fragile and it has to get right next to it's target to deploy. In my opinion, and maybe I just haven't played enough, the Scrambler isn't worth a 7 Wit cost. I suggest one of the three things be done:

List Updated: 10/23

1. Reduce the Wit cost to 5. As it stands, due to the needed protection and time to get within range for the Scrambler to be effective, it is a huge Wit investment not only to summon but to use effectively.
2. Make it's ability range equal to it's movement range. While still frail and vulnerable to Runners, it's range will allow it to serve as a sort of "one shot cannon", like a frail but more powerful Bombshell.
3. Set it's life back to 2. This will allow it to survive a single Runner and put it on par with the Bombshell, trading the BS's slightly higher life and range for it's power.
4. Keep Scrambler as is, but only reduce target's life by 1. This will leave Runners the same but otherwise reduce all other scrambled units by a single Life, giving them more survivability.
   

Does anyone have any replays of the Scrambler being used in a way that makes it's not worthless...? I can't justify ever purchasing one unless I have a lot of pooled Wit and he's got a 5HP power unit knocking on my front door, and even then I'm looking at a huge investment.

I don't mean to come on the forums and complain. As it stands, I'll continue using Feedback purely for aesthetics until Veggienauts are made available. That uber unit looks boss as hell.

[CombatEX]

The mobi is definitely a powerful unit though the relative strengths of the specials depend heavily on the map. At any rate, you can imagine in a game where someone makes a bombshell (especially on a bigger map), you can use a mobi to ferry units to the side where the bombshell is not (or can only hit a slight area with splash). Every time a player has to reposition a bombshell it is a costly 3 wits. For the mobi, it essentially gives you free wits (really just saving them) when you use it to move a unit further than it normally could. Particularly dramatic is moving snipers as this not only saves all the wits you would have needed to move however many spaces you warped with the mobi, but also all the turns it would have taken.

As for the scrambler, your suggestions would make it far too good.

Suggestion 3. The initial version of the scrambler had 2 health instead of 1 and it was already deemed too strong compared to the other specials. Increasing health to 4 would be insane given that even at 2 it was too much.

Suggestion 2. Increasing it's range would also be way too good as the scrambler could then transform units with impunity from behind a wall of soldiers.

Suggestion 1. Reducing the wit cost to 3 or 4 is way too cheap. Scramblers 1HKO units. Think of the Scrambler as a soldier that deals infinite damage (in fact, the Scrambler is even better than that as not only does it 1HKO a unit, but it even gives that unit to you). Now, would you make a 3 wit soldier that does 2 damage or a 3/4 wit soldier that does infinite damage?

Rather, if the scrambler really is underpowered, I would suggest the captured unit taking 1 or 2 damage rather than going all the way down to 1 health. For example, a scrambled 4 hp soldier would go down to 2 or 3 hp. Minimum hp would be 1 so the scrambled unit will never die outright.

[Katastrophe]

I knew I was blanking on a suggestion and what you put at the end was it - to reduce the negative affect the Scrambler has on it's target so that the target's isn't at 1 Life. I don't see how 2HP could make the Scrambler overpowered when it has to get right next to it's target to take it over. I just watched the replay of vide0gamer(F) vs awpertunity(S) and vide0gamer did use the Scrambler once, but I honestly don't see it as being worth the investment.

If you watch that replay, he uses it to take over his opponent's Bombshell and shell an empty space, hitting his base and two units with splash. The Scrambler and Bombshell then died on the next turn. While it did wonders to soften up the base and two Soldier units, it require a bloody convoy of Soldiers on a suicide mission to do so. I'm not going to calculate how much Wit the entire thing cost him considering it had 2HP long before the attack even occurred (though not before the Scrambler was in play, I believe)... I just can't justify it. And even so, you'd almost have to use it on another Uber unit to make it worth the cost.

[CombatEX]

I don't have time to discuss this in detail at the moment (analyzing replays etc), but as for the 2HP being too good, this was just something that players found in the lengthy beta before Outwitters was first released. I'm playing in the current beta servers for the new team and for some reason the current beta uses a pre-release version of Outwitters so the Scrambler is actually in its 2HP form. It's hard to explain why without being able to show you replays (you won't be able to load replays from the beta server), but the Scrambler is extremely powerful with a potential 3HP.

I think this is primarily because it makes it much harder to kill a Scrambler (you can no longer do so with a soldier). When a Scrambler survives past one turn and can scramble again, it's devastating. That's 2 units that not only were 'killed' (the opponent no longer has them), but also 2 units that the opponent has to deal with (spend wits to kill those additional units). Now after the second scramble, the Scrambler is still just as hard as ever to kill with its 3HP ... and so the process can continue.

This example won't necessarily be how it looks all the time, but the point is that the Scrambler has the deadliest ability* (even better than a 1HKO), so having a Scrambler survive for even 1 more turn is a huge deal. This is likely why giving the Scrambler what seems like a marginal boost in survivability actually has a huge impact on the unit's effectiveness.

*What I mean by this is that the Scrambler does massive damage (1HKO) and can do this damage immediately (doesn't need to be set up like a bombshell and have to wait for an opponent to move in range).

[Katastrophe]

No, now that you explain it a bit, I can see how the Life increase would make it exponentially useful rather than just... more useful. I actually think the 2HP increase would be the moderately acceptable. I believe the Scrambler has the same movement as a Soldier?

The main issue is that even if I escort of little brain on skis to his target, all it takes is one Runner to swoop in and send the whole thing to hell. A unit that I wouldn't even be able to see coming due to my smaller range.

In all honesty, I would rather see the Scrambler as a long range, set-up unit like the Bombshell that deals large damage (numerical) to a single target rather than AoE... but maybe that's just me.

[Joggies]

Sound's like you haven't had your booty whooped by a scrambler yet ;-)

I like your post and the discussion and thought I might give you another way to look at the economic value of the scrambler.

Lets say you build one, move it once or twice and take a soldier. That cost you 9-10 wits. But you effectively killed a solider (worth 2 wits, plus at least one movement point invested in it, and quite possibly buffed). Not only that but you gained a soldier with 1hp. Let's call that worth 2 witpoint to you (it's damaged, but it is also deployed). So you've just earned 5-7 back on your investment minimum. You can see that even a reckless suicide mission with a scrambler makes about three quarters of its value back. Now used sensibly, it can really make stunning returns. If you can take a juicy prize, or somehow protect it to take a small prize and live another day you are laughing.

And that's just the offensive side. They are probably at their most wicked defensively. It can be pretty daunting trying to attack an area with a couple of those scrambly spiders lurking...

[Katastrophe]

@Joggies: While I agree that the Scrambler does have huge potential to return it's investment, it has an equal chance to blow up in your face. That does make it balanced in the sense of risk/reward, but you need to also consider the apparent play style trend. Just watch any of the ST replays and you'll see that most top players use a very defensive, reactive style. The BombShell plays into this perfectly, without any risk/reward necessary. Just watch the video in this weeks Top 200 and you'll see just how devastating the Bombshell unit is to the current metagame.

The general point I'm trying to make is that while the Scrambler is balanced given it's risk/reward weighting, when considering the preferred style of play, the Bombshell fits far better in 1v1 than the Scrambler.

edit: Also, I've only played one Feedback opponent who used a Scrambler.
I spawned a Runner, put it behind him, and killed it. 3 Wit for his 7+ Wit.

[CombatEX]

Just a note, you should buff your Scrambler if it is open to being hit by a runner.

[Katastrophe]

(10-24-2012 07:40 AM)CombatEX Wrote:  Just a note, you should buff your Scrambler if it is open to being hit by a runner.

I actually opt to keep a Medic right next to my spawn and buff everything that comes out of it.

[CombatEX]

Ah, I just made that comment because you were talking about a runner being able to come in and pick off your scrambler. Or perhaps you were talking about the runner coming in and killing the unit you scrambled? Regardless, I don't know if I would call that sending the whole thing to hell.