Super-Titan Replay Discussion

[Syvan]

I think it depends on what you want your replays to show. In my experience, there is a fairly substantial skill difference even at the top of the rankings they just released. If you show all super titans, you should have a good demonstration of basic openings, unit strengths, and general responses to a variety of situations. I've noticed that (at least so far) only the highest level replays build on those basics and reliably have well thought out and coordinated attacks. Unfortunately, newer players probably won't see the way they develop without more commentary on each match.

It's important to remember that being highly ranked in a super Titan division doesn't necessarily mean top skill. I'm 8th I think in my division, but if you look at the skill rankings that were just posted, I have the highest MMR in my division. Similarly, many of the top 25 have fairly low ladder points.

Since ladder points don't reset on promotion, we are seeing masters players with tons of games get promoted and shoot straight to the top of their divisions.

I guess the question to ask is whether you want to have a large collection of games that show solid basics or a smaller collection of very high quality games that illustrate more complex techniques.

[swimj]

(08-02-2012 02:31 PM)Syvan Wrote:  I think it depends on what you want your replays to show. In my experience, there is a fairly substantial skill difference even at the top of the rankings they just released. If you show all super titans, you should have a good demonstration of basic openings, unit strengths, and general responses to a variety of situations. I've noticed that (at least so far) only the highest level replays build on those basics and reliably have well thought out and coordinated attacks. Unfortunately, newer players probably won't see the way they develop without more commentary on each match.

It's important to remember that being highly ranked in a super Titan division doesn't necessarily mean top skill. I'm 8th I think in my division, but if you look at the skill rankings that were just posted, I have the highest MMR in my division. Similarly, many of the top 25 have fairly low ladder points.

Since ladder points don't reset on promotion, we are seeing masters players with tons of games get promoted and shoot straight to the top of their divisions.

I guess the question to ask is whether you want to have a large collection of games that show solid basics or a smaller collection of very high quality games that illustrate more complex techniques.

Fair point. I still think allowing most st replays regardless of any special quality is good because there is still a difference in the mastery of fundamentals such as exploiting fog of war or special unit usage which is not there in many masters replays that I've seen in the other replay thread.

Syvan, you have been very generous to share many of your replays but not many of the top players according to skill have shared as many of their replays or even go on the forums.

I think an optimal solution would be to have a large pool of solid replays, and then have special labels/tags for the ones that stand out, such as runner pressure, rush defense, etc. Games in which a player provides longer discussion of strategy can also be noted. Of course all of this shouldn't fall upon combatex to manage because it's a lot! Perhaps some of the more active forumers/st players can help out?

[Smittons]

Wow, thanks for sharing, guys.
I'll be sure to steal everything from you all.
I do find this very helpful, in all seriousness, but I wonder if it would change how the game was played if everyone started opening like this.

[CombatEX]

Hm. Thanks for the feedback so far. Yes, I did originally want to put mostly the 'highest quality' replays. But as a mere Masters player myself, I don't feel like I would be able to accurately assess which replays are the 'best' to upload.

I think for now I'll just continue uploading all ST vs ST replays (rather than trying to pick the 'best'). At least if people want they can just pick from replays by players they know are top-tier (since player names are included in replay labels). I do think that I won't be adding Master v ST replays at this point though unless enough people want me to. My reasoning is that we're getting to the point where we have a good foundation of ST vs ST replays with people continuing to submit more so I don't really need to fill the void at this point. Also, if someone is about to become ST then they can just upload their actual ST games once they're there.

At present my goal for the first post in this thread is a place where people can go to look at different openers, counters to early aggression (fta rushes, etc), and for newer players to get an idea of some basic important aspects of Outwitters. Actually Syvan sums it up quite nicely, the aim of the first post is to help give players "a good [or better] demonstration of basic openings, unit strengths, and general responses to a variety of situations"

However, as Syvan pointed out "newer players probably won't see the way [complex, well coordinated attacks] develop without more commentary on each match." So this is where my secondary goal for this thread comes into place, that is for people to hopefully start posting some more detailed breakdowns of games they feel would be most helpful to share. Since again, as a masters player I don't feel like I can accurately judge which games are the best to show, this is where you Super-Titan players come in =)

[$tugot$]

#74 $tugot$ vs. #79 JD0426

$tugot$ vs. Dzikko - Glitch

[nivra0]

(08-02-2012 05:56 PM)CombatEX Wrote:  Hm. Thanks for the feedback so far. Yes, I did originally want to put mostly the 'highest quality' replays. But as a mere Masters player myself, I don't feel like I would be able to accurately assess which replays are the 'best' to upload.

I think a good place to start would be to (*) any games between top100 players. And then (**) any games between top50 players, and finally (***) games between top20 players. These would be assigned according to the just released rankings, of course.

That should work as a good first pass proxy on the quality of the replay.

---

Additional replays:
Top50 players: BitPilot vs. me. - Long Nine
BitPilot uses FTA to create lots of early pressure up at the top. I defend while conserving wits, and end up building a decent army at the bottom. When the gambit up top fails, Bit presses an assault at the bottom, but ends up in the teeth of my defense.

FTA on Foundry

And another Top50 with BitPilot. My crucial mistake was turn 18. I got careless and did a horrible noob defense, using my snipes too early, then compensating by moving my heavy impulsively when a soldier would've been fine. That turn was just lolfail.

[calmon]

With 77 turn my longest game ever and it was a very exciting one with a lot of action in:

Calmon! (FTA) vs Alvendor - 77 Turns

I just reviewed it. Here is the Top 3 of my mistakes in this game sorted by turn:
- Turn 23: my plan was to destroy his bombshell with my sniper but accidently places my soldier to the place the sniper should go (the other soldier should have destroy the runner)
- Turn 37: Completlely missplaced my mobi. Easy target for the sniper
- turn 51: I started to overextend my attacks. 3 life soldier in opponents base sniper range + a nearly dead one on his bonus without killing neighbourd soldier + nothing to back up the attack wasn't the best idea

I enjoyed the game Alvendor as I do the others we run with winners on both sides.

[nivra0]

Top 100: me vs macroego - sweetie

[CombatEX]

(08-03-2012 04:10 PM)nivra0 Wrote:  I think a good place to start would be to (*) any games between top100 players. And then (**) any games between top50 players, and finally (***) games between top20 players. These would be assigned according to the just released rankings, of course.

Okay, I implemented your suggestion. I'm not sure how necessary it is though. I'm open to removing it if people think it unnecessarily clutters the first post. I'm equally fine with keeping it in if people find it helpful. Either way is fine with me.

[Alvendor]

(08-03-2012 07:01 PM)calmon Wrote:  With 77 turn my longest game ever and it was a very exciting one with a lot of action in:

Calmon! (FTA) vs Alvendor - 77 Turns

I just reviewed it. Here is the Top 3 of my mistakes in this game sorted by turn:
- Turn 23: my plan was to destroy his bombshell with my sniper but accidently places my soldier to the place the sniper should go (the other soldier should have destroy the runner)
- Turn 37: Completlely missplaced my mobi. Easy target for the sniper
- turn 51: I started to overextend my attacks. 3 life soldier in opponents base sniper range + a nearly dead one on his bonus without killing neighbourd soldier + nothing to back up the attack wasn't the best idea

I enjoyed the game Alvendor as I do the others we run with winners on both sides.

- Turn 18: The game is pretty open at this point and I have several options: turtle up and slow push, attack left or attack right. Its usually a bad idea to attack on the left, your spawn point side, but as you have a sniper far to the right I thought I could make it useless by going left. I think this was my most crucial mistake that I underestimated how powerful it is to defend close to your spawn point.

- Turn 26: I make a stupid mistake of thinking I can move the bombshell after it has fired. I guess this is the type of error you just have to do once in an important situation and then you remember to not do them again.

From then on it felt like an uphill battle. Your constant pressure in combination with you sniper at your bonus square made it very tough to make a comeback. I made a couple of smaller positional errors afterwards but not sure they affected the outcome. Interesting game even though its kind of mentally draining with 77 turn games with constant action =)