Update!!

[EkoFox]

(01-30-2013 05:27 AM)Gavin Wins Wrote:  I think I'd like the bramble "buff" better if it returned a wit only if the killing blow was landed by a scout or soldier.

What would be the point of that? To me it just makes it too complex.

[PowerCrazy]

(01-30-2013 03:29 AM)Harti Wrote:  

(01-30-2013 03:24 AM)Ja Karta Wrote:  Parent-Child rule + one child/parent/turn means you can't mass barrier spawn. It's also incredibly expensive.

So you're saying placing a 3 HP "Soldier" (in terms of defense) hypothetically anywhere on the field at the cost of 1 (without having to move to the destination) is expensive?

Interesting.


I like the change, I guess, as stated previously it was overpowered in the beta but as they added +1 wit I guess it's counterable. If it's still insufficient there's always the option to have rooting/unrooting cost 1 just like the Bombshell.

The bramble is actually even more underpowered now then it was before the change. Making the vines just 3hp with no wits gain would be OP, but with the wit gain its UP. If the vines weren't killable by ranged units, then it would probably be fine. If the vines healed automatically each turn, it would be fine.

The only problem the Bramble had was vs Scally anyway. Otherwise it was fine. Instead the bramble was changed in the only way that could have made it worse.

---

(01-30-2013 03:29 AM)Harti Wrote:  

(01-30-2013 03:24 AM)Ja Karta Wrote:  Parent-Child rule + one child/parent/turn means you can't mass barrier spawn. It's also incredibly expensive.

So you're saying placing a 3 HP "Soldier" (in terms of defense) hypothetically anywhere on the field at the cost of 1 (without having to move to the destination) is expensive?

Interesting.


I like the change, I guess, as stated previously it was overpowered in the beta but as they added +1 wit I guess it's counterable. If it's still insufficient there's always the option to have rooting/unrooting cost 1 just like the Bombshell.

The bramble is actually even more underpowered now then it was before the change. Making the vines just 3hp with no wits gain would be OP, but with the wit gain its UP. If the vines weren't killable by ranged units, then it would probably be fine. If the vines healed automatically each turn, it would be fine.

The only problem the Bramble had was vs Scally anyway. Otherwise it was fine. Instead the bramble was changed in the only way that could have made it worse.

---

(01-30-2013 03:29 AM)Harti Wrote:  

(01-30-2013 03:24 AM)Ja Karta Wrote:  Parent-Child rule + one child/parent/turn means you can't mass barrier spawn. It's also incredibly expensive.

So you're saying placing a 3 HP "Soldier" (in terms of defense) hypothetically anywhere on the field at the cost of 1 (without having to move to the destination) is expensive?

Interesting.


I like the change, I guess, as stated previously it was overpowered in the beta but as they added +1 wit I guess it's counterable. If it's still insufficient there's always the option to have rooting/unrooting cost 1 just like the Bombshell.

The bramble is actually even more underpowered now then it was before the change. Making the vines just 3hp with no wits gain would be OP, but with the wit gain its UP. If the vines weren't killable by ranged units, then it would probably be fine. If the vines healed automatically each turn, it would be fine.

The only problem the Bramble had was vs Scally anyway. Otherwise it was fine. Instead the bramble was changed in the only way that could have made it worse.

---

(01-30-2013 03:29 AM)Harti Wrote:  

(01-30-2013 03:24 AM)Ja Karta Wrote:  Parent-Child rule + one child/parent/turn means you can't mass barrier spawn. It's also incredibly expensive.

So you're saying placing a 3 HP "Soldier" (in terms of defense) hypothetically anywhere on the field at the cost of 1 (without having to move to the destination) is expensive?

Interesting.
I like the change, I guess, as stated previously it was overpowered in the beta but as they added +1 wit I guess it's counterable. If it's still insufficient there's always the option to have rooting/unrooting cost 1 just like the Bombshell.

The bramble is actually even more underpowered now then it was before the change. Making the vines just 3hp with no wits gain would be OP, but with the wit gain its UP. If the vines weren't killable by ranged units, then it would probably be fine. If the vines healed automatically each turn, it would be fine.

The only problem the Bramble had was vs Scally anyway. Otherwise it was fine. Instead the bramble was changed in the only way that could have made it worse.

---

(01-30-2013 03:29 AM)Harti Wrote:  

(01-30-2013 03:24 AM)Ja Karta Wrote:  Parent-Child rule + one child/parent/turn means you can't mass barrier spawn. It's also incredibly expensive.

So you're saying placing a 3 HP "Soldier" (in terms of defense) hypothetically anywhere on the field at the cost of 1 (without having to move to the destination) is expensive?

Interesting.


I like the change, I guess, as stated previously it was overpowered in the beta but as they added +1 wit I guess it's counterable. If it's still insufficient there's always the option to have rooting/unrooting cost 1 just like the Bombshell.

The bramble is actually even more underpowered now then it was before the change. Making the vines just 3hp with no wits gain would be OP, but with the wit gain its UP. If the vines weren't killable by ranged units, then it would probably be fine. If the vines healed automatically each turn, it would be fine.

The only problem the Bramble had was vs Scally anyway. Otherwise it was fine. Instead the bramble was changed in the only way that could have made it worse.

[EkoFox]

Interesting. Never seen a quintuple post before.

[Mag!cGuy]

I think the brambles'd update is perfect. 1 wit for a 3hp thorn, and some of you call it underpowerred? ^^

What I understand less is the new system point. Ok, now it is more satisfying, and you ain't nervous because you lose, since it seems you lose from 1 to 5 wits whereas you win 20. But now, points have less meaning:

Before, any master player who saw his opponent having 300 ponts was sure he would have difficulties. Having 300 points in master league is very hard, you guys can't disagree. ^^

But now, a player who launchs 35 games, will reach 400 points very quickly even though he lost 1/3 of his 35 battles. Points don't mean anything anymore, and I don't know if it's good.

[Gavin Wins]

(01-30-2013 05:33 AM)EkoFox Wrote:  

(01-30-2013 05:27 AM)Gavin Wins Wrote:  I think I'd like the bramble "buff" better if it returned a wit only if the killing blow was landed by a scout or soldier.

What would be the point of that? To me it just makes it too complex.

Because, before the change, if a vine took a wit tile, if took a MINIMUM of 2 wits for the opponent to take it back. Now, with the wit refund on death, the opponent can take his wit tile back by potentially spending only 1 wit. Harassing the wit tiles was where the Bramble really shined and made the opponent waste wits, but now its effectiveness at making the opponent waste wits in that situation is severely diminished. Killing a vine should never be "free." It should always cost the attacker at least the same amount (in wits) that it cost the bramble to build the vine.

[EkoFox]

(01-30-2013 06:35 AM)W1cked21 Wrote:  But now, a player who launchs 35 games, will reach 400 points very quickly even though he lost 1/3 of his 35 battles. Points don't mean anything anymore, and I don't know if it's good.

A 2:1 Win:Loss ratio is actually very good. The system tries to set you up against opponents who are equally as skilled as you, which ends up making your W:L ratio 1:1. If someone had a 2:1 ratio, it would be justified for him to have 400 points.

[Uvafan173]

(01-30-2013 06:51 AM)EkoFox Wrote:  

(01-30-2013 06:35 AM)W1cked21 Wrote:  But now, a player who launchs 35 games, will reach 400 points very quickly even though he lost 1/3 of his 35 battles. Points don't mean anything anymore, and I don't know if it's good.

A 2:1 Win:Loss ratio is actually very good. The system tries to set you up against opponents who are equally as skilled as you, which ends up making your W:L ratio 1:1. If someone had a 2:1 ratio, it would be justified for him to have 400 points.

But even if you do have a 1:1 ratio you still will gain lots of points with this system as long as you playa bunch of games.

[CombatEX]

(01-29-2013 05:46 PM)QuantumApocalypse Wrote:  It's probably better and less confusing for 'fun' points to be the main concern for players, especially for those who are somewhat basic and not on the forums. The focus on boosting hidden rankings was quite unintentional and stated previously as not the main focus of the game. Rather, competitive nature within leagues themselves.

Yes, the focus isn't supposed to be on boosting hidden ranking, but I interpret that differently than you. While you see that statement implying that we "shouldn't focus on how our skill level is improving but rather on trying to boost some unrelated numerical value to compete in our division", I see it as "we shouldn't focus on what our hidden-rating is because we have a point system which is a decent representation of our skill anyway". However, this substitute is non-existent with 'fun' points. So instead what this achieves is leaving players in the dark in regards to their skill. Yes, there are leagues. However leagues are huge and a player at the top of a particular league (in hidden-rating) is at a very different level than a player at the bottom (especially in Fluffy and Clever where the leagues are ~40%).

Quote:While people on the top 200 mightn't be too elated about the game becoming fun point orientated, it'd definitely boost the fun and competitive spirit within the lower leagues and skill levels.

At any rate, I wouldn't be so sure about this. In terms of fun, some people enjoy grinding (*cough* KRPGs *cough*), but many people do not. 'Fun' points are all about churning out as many games as possible and not about improving yourself. Doesn't sound very 'fun' to me. Now how about improving competitiveness? If you want the focus to be on competitive play within a league, how would 'skill points' not promote competition? I couldn't have cared less about the points back before seasons because I knew I had no chance of beating the people who played 20 games a week since I only played 2. However, once seasons started I was actually interested in points (until I got into the top 200) because I was finally able to have a shot at the top. But let's not just talk about me, how about the player-base as a whole?

Ultimately fun points are terrible for competition compared to skill points because in any game you always have the people who devote every free moment to it and then hoards of average and casual players. With activity-based points you just have the few people who play Outwitters obsessively actually competing while all the moderate and casual players have no hope. Skill points are great because even someone who plays casually can always have hope of making it to the top provided they improve in ability. Even if it may not be likely for some, it's the fact that it's possible for anyone to make it up there if they improve without having to devote extreme amounts of time to the game.

(01-29-2013 06:10 PM)Eijolend Wrote:  The zero-sum system before basically didn't measure skill, but only how much you improved since the league started (which is better than activity only). I'm glad there's some change to that.

Different points lost/gained are needed if you want to force the score to converge towards a rating more in line with your hidden rating (considering SC2 does something similar).
Of course without knowing the formulas beneath it's hard to say whether the change does that, so we just have to wait and see how it looks.

You're absolutely right. Although I'd add that it also showed players who were under-rated by match-making after placing even if they hadn't improved at all. At any rate, I agree that zero-sum isn't going to work out too well and is the reason I still thing bonus pool is the way to go.

[zoraster]

would an ELO system be so bad? I like the different leagues and all, but I'd prefer to have an actual rating rather than a score and a super secret hidden rating that does mysterious magical things.

[EkoFox]

As promised, my replay of a Bramble v Mobi Reaper rush. It's not a perfect example since it wasn't a fully committed rush, but it demonstrates that Bramble can stop a rush (and the most talked about rush ever, at that) and Bramble is no longer underpowered. I can post some more of my Veggienauts replays as they come out, if you want.