Reaper Rush Defense - Brought to you by iPro

harvarnold · 12-29-2012, 11:17 PM

(12-29-2012 10:57 PM)Necrocat219 Wrote:
(12-29-2012 10:21 PM)vegaprom Wrote: Thanks a lot!!! Usually I make an assumption on Reaper with the Adorables that he'll do a Mobi rush. But I wonder if are there any Adorable players who don't do a Mobi rush???

When everyone begins to always set up against the mobi rush it'll become a game of Rock Paper Scissors as the adorable player decides to let the opponent waste resources countering the rush.

The thing is, the opening doesn't really waste resources even if the is no rush. It provides defenses on the heavy side for later in the game, so there is really no reason not to do this opening.

Thrutchy · (This post was last modified: 12-30-2012 01:44 AM by Thrutchy.)

(12-29-2012 11:17 PM)harvarnold Wrote:
(12-29-2012 10:57 PM)Necrocat219 Wrote:
(12-29-2012 10:21 PM)vegaprom Wrote: Thanks a lot!!! Usually I make an assumption on Reaper with the Adorables that he'll do a Mobi rush. But I wonder if are there any Adorable players who don't do a Mobi rush???

When everyone begins to always set up against the mobi rush it'll become a game of Rock Paper Scissors as the adorable player decides to let the opponent waste resources countering the rush.
The thing is, the opening doesn't really waste resources even if the is no rush. It provides defenses on the heavy side for later in the game, so there is really no reason not to do this opening.

Necrocat is absolutely right. The waste is in the movement of the predeployed runner and sniper. If it weren't for one spawn per turn, you'd be better off spawning a new runner and new sniper.

With regard to rock-paper-scissors, it is worse than that. P2 just typically neutralizes the P1 rush. P1 on the other hand wins. P1 can also just keep trying the rush over and over.

We need a better defense, I think. We are doing quite a bit of testing on Reaper to find better solutions. It is a difficult problem.

harvarnold · 12-30-2012, 02:14 AM

(12-30-2012 01:40 AM)Thrutchy Wrote:
(12-29-2012 11:17 PM)harvarnold Wrote:
(12-29-2012 10:57 PM)Necrocat219 Wrote:
(12-29-2012 10:21 PM)vegaprom Wrote: Thanks a lot!!! Usually I make an assumption on Reaper with the Adorables that he'll do a Mobi rush. But I wonder if are there any Adorable players who don't do a Mobi rush???

When everyone begins to always set up against the mobi rush it'll become a game of Rock Paper Scissors as the adorable player decides to let the opponent waste resources countering the rush.
The thing is, the opening doesn't really waste resources even if the is no rush. It provides defenses on the heavy side for later in the game, so there is really no reason not to do this opening.

Necrocat is absolutely right. The waste is in the movement of the predeployed runner and sniper. If it weren't for one spawn per turn, you'd be better off spawning a new runner and new sniper.

With regard to rock-paper-scissors, it is worse than that. P2 just typically neutralizes the P1 rush. P1 on the other hand wins. P1 can also just keep trying the rush over and over.

We need a better defense, I think. We are doing quite a bit of testing on Reaper to find better solutions. It is a difficult problem.

My mistake, I forgot about moving the sniper. It is good though that the rush is defendable and not an automatic lose.

Emuchu · 12-30-2012, 04:36 AM

A couple of days ago, I matched up against the current #65, the guy whose name is a string of Japanese characters. It's on Ranked and I have P1 Adorables on Reaper... I think he's boycotting the game. He hasn't moved once or said anything in chat.

Necrocat219 · (06-09-2014 02:14 PM)

(12-30-2012 02:14 AM)harvarnold Wrote:
(12-30-2012 01:40 AM)Thrutchy Wrote:
(12-29-2012 11:17 PM)harvarnold Wrote:
(12-29-2012 10:57 PM)Necrocat219 Wrote:
(12-29-2012 10:21 PM)vegaprom Wrote: Thanks a lot!!! Usually I make an assumption on Reaper with the Adorables that he'll do a Mobi rush. But I wonder if are there any Adorable players who don't do a Mobi rush???

When everyone begins to always set up against the mobi rush it'll become a game of Rock Paper Scissors as the adorable player decides to let the opponent waste resources countering the rush.
The thing is, the opening doesn't really waste resources even if the is no rush. It provides defenses on the heavy side for later in the game, so there is really no reason not to do this opening.

Necrocat is absolutely right. The waste is in the movement of the predeployed runner and sniper. If it weren't for one spawn per turn, you'd be better off spawning a new runner and new sniper.

With regard to rock-paper-scissors, it is worse than that. P2 just typically neutralizes the P1 rush. P1 on the other hand wins. P1 can also just keep trying the rush over and over.

We need a better defense, I think. We are doing quite a bit of testing on Reaper to find better solutions. It is a difficult problem.
My mistake, I forgot about moving the sniper. It is good though that the rush is defendable and not an automatic lose.

It is good that it is defendable but it still isn't right as it's somewhat abusable. The following is a perfect experiment that you can try out in your games to demonstrate this:

Lets say you start as P1 Adorables on Reaper and you decide instead of playing depending on what you feel like playing you decide to flip a coin, Heads as Rush and Tails as playing normally. At the moment standard practice is to do everything in your power to counter the rush, moving the runner away from the wit space (-1 wit), which doesn't provide P2 with any knowledge of the rush taking place until his 3rd turn. Now theres a 50% chance of P1 opening normally and having a 1 wit advantage and any positional advantage that would be gained from your opponent, simply because the threat of an unstoppable rush is imminent.

Now the flip-side of the coin is almost unfathomable; right now if Adorables open with a Rush they are most likely greeted by a ready opponent if the opponent knows how to counter the rush. However lets say the P1 Adorable player has played this same player once already and not rushed him - what does P2 do? Judging on the previous game he could assume that P1 will have the same opening - but if he does that then a choice from the opponent to rush would result in imminent death. + the coinflip scenario could take hold at top levels of play.

wonderpug · 01-02-2013, 01:38 AM

(12-30-2012 04:36 AM)Emuchu Wrote: A couple of days ago, I matched up against the current #65, the guy whose name is a string of Japanese characters. It's on Ranked and I have P1 Adorables on Reaper... I think he's boycotting the game. He hasn't moved once or said anything in chat.

I think he's just really slow to take turns. I've got a match with him I keep thinking I'll win from the turn timer expiring but he always ends up doing his move at the last minute.

Emuchu · 01-02-2013, 10:57 AM

(01-02-2013 01:38 AM)wonderpug Wrote:
(12-30-2012 04:36 AM)Emuchu Wrote: A couple of days ago, I matched up against the current #65, the guy whose name is a string of Japanese characters. It's on Ranked and I have P1 Adorables on Reaper... I think he's boycotting the game. He hasn't moved once or said anything in chat.

I think he's just really slow to take turns. I've got a match with him I keep thinking I'll win from the turn timer expiring but he always ends up doing his move at the last minute.

You're right. He started making his moves when the timer was about to pass. Although... it's odd, why accept the game if you're not planning to make your first move?

laYahooz · (This post was last modified: 01-02-2013 01:03 PM by laYahooz.)

The first couple moves of this defense works really well but I don't think it neccessarily stops the rush. The thing is, the defense only stops the “initial rush". That is, the adorables can keep repeating the rush until it succeeds. The only way this rush can be legitimately stopped is by actually killing the mobi. And if the adorables player is smart, that mobi is pretty much untouchable.

With that said, this defensive method does give me a chance to beat the adorables on reaper. Since I can stop the “initial rush," I can then try and pull off an attack of my own. However, adorables still have the major advantage!

I actually win the my first OWSA round against the adorables as feedback (and it was a master player doing the rush). But I was at a definitive unit disadvantage due to him repeating the rush.

wonderpug · 01-04-2013, 02:00 PM

Although I still haven't quite gotten the hang of the iPro Reaper Defense, even my awkward uses of it seem to be giving me more of a fighting chance.

Here I did a Hail Mary counter-mobi that I'm pretty proud of:
outwitters://viewgame?id=ag5vdXR3aXR0ZXJzZ2FtZXIRCxIIR2FtZVJvb20Y9_-pAgw

Emuchu · (This post was last modified: 01-04-2013 05:35 PM by Emuchu.)

(01-04-2013 02:00 PM)wonderpug Wrote: Although I still haven't quite gotten the hang of the iPro Reaper Defense, even my awkward uses of it seem to be giving me more of a fighting chance.

Here I did a Hail Mary counter-mobi that I'm pretty proud of:
outwitters://viewgame?id=ag5vdXR3aXR0ZXJzZ2FtZXIRCxIIR2FtZVJvb20Y9_-pAgw

On Turn 4, I feel like you should always bring your Runner back. On Turn 6, the Runner could have taken out the Sniper that your Soldier jumped into. The rush changes a lot when your opponent isn't able to safely drop a Sniper into the corner.