First-mover advantage?

[ArtNJ]

Yeah, we found a pretty large advantage to going first in Hero Academy among stronger players, even though Robot Entertainment only found a 52% win rate across the entire universe of players.

But I'm betting that the FTA in Outwitters is smaller, at least on most maps, even among top players. Hero Academy is different because the presence of AOE and the ability to damage the base-equivalent (crystals) from range makes defense less feasible than it is in Outwitters.

FTA could even be *smaller* among top players than among the general player base, due to the fact that the top people understand defense.

[wonderpug]

I think the way Wits work in Outwitters does a decent amount to offset FTA in a way that doesn't apply to Hero Academy, namely the mechanic of having the same resource for both spawning, moving and attacking. It costs more for an aggressor to put a unit on your doorstep than it does to fight them off.

Where Outwitters gives more of a FTA than HA, though, is in some of the vulnerable opening positions for Snipers and Healers on some maps. The second player has to worry about the safety of those units right out of the gate, and has to either commit to spending some first turn Wits on scouting or defending, or roll the dice and take them as acceptable losses. The first player has the leisure of taking an entire turn without risk, and he has extra Wits in his second move for scouting (due to the newly claimed bonus tiles).

[calmon]

(08-01-2012 04:14 AM)ArtNJ Wrote:  But I'm betting that the FTA in Outwitters is smaller, at least on most maps, even among top players. Hero Academy is different because the presence of AOE and the ability to damage the base-equivalent (crystals) from range makes defense less feasible than it is in Outwitters.

I see that a bit different . I played/play a lot hero academy and I never care being first or second. Hero Academy is limited by the amount of stuff you can play in total while outwitters is not. Hero Aademy let you see every action your FTA opponent do while in outwitters you often need tofind out your FTA opponent is rushing you or just build up a strong unit base.

Being second in outwitters puts you under preassure from start on. If you do a mistake it often lose you the game while a mistake as first player is forgiven in most cases.

[wonderpug]

The Hero Academy FTA is pretty well backed up by the extensive data the fan league collects. The lack of fog of war doesn't negate FTAs, since even chess has a well documented FTA.

[nivra0]

(08-01-2012 07:42 AM)calmon Wrote:  Being second in outwitters puts you under preassure from start on. If you do a mistake it often lose you the game while a mistake as first player is forgiven in most cases.

This. Very much this. My experience in ST leagues is that P2 is constantly pressured by P1, and has to play almost perfectly to have an even chance at a game.

[nivra0]

(08-01-2012 10:40 AM)mkaen Wrote:  

(08-01-2012 05:16 AM)wonderpug Wrote:  I think the way Wits work in Outwitters does a decent amount to offset FTA in a way that doesn't apply to Hero Academy, namely the mechanic of having the same resource for both spawning, moving and attacking. It costs more for an aggressor to put a unit on your doorstep than it does to fight them off.

I agree with this assessment. I don't think FTA warrants any changes. But certainly I could be convinced if the data say otherwise.

Once we do have data, unless the advantage is greater than 52-55% (roughly White's advantage in Chess), I would say it still doesn't warrant changes.

This needs to be calculated for even MMR situations, especially high MMR matches. For lower MMR's, or different MMR's, the advantage may not be as prominent. IOW, Skill Difference is a bigger deal, and then at low levels of play, there's too much variance anyways.