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First-mover advantage? - Printable Version

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First-mover advantage? - dingding - 07-31-2012 12:28 AM

I'm wondering if I am the only one that thinks the first-mover of the game (P1) has a special advantage.

It's quite obvious that at any turn of P1, he has 6-7 more wits accumulated compared to his opponent. P2, however, has only the same amount of wits at his turn as P1.

This mechanism seems to force P2 into a defensive position. Still, in some maps securing a strategic position controlled is crucial and turtling doesn't seem to be a very good option. Plus, 6-7 additional wits to P1 can be invested in a WMD (mobi or bombshell) which crashes the defense.

Would the game be more balanced if P2 gets an additional wit at the beginning (6 instead of 5)? Any idea?

RE: First-mover advantage? - Bluegodzill - 07-31-2012 12:37 AM

Hey, you must.be new here. One, it's called first turn advantage, or FTA, two, there's already threads about this.

RE: First-mover advantage? - Kamikaze28 - 07-31-2012 12:39 AM

There have been numerous threads and discussions on this topic already. Take your pick:
Edit: Too bad searching these links took so long.

RE: First-mover advantage? - dingding - 07-31-2012 12:46 AM

Thanks, guys! I read the first two pages of threads and didn't dig that deep.

RE: First-mover advantage? - ArtNJ - 07-31-2012 12:55 AM

Perhaps OneAlexLeft could post the win-loss data for player 1 and 2. There should be enough data for it by now.

If there is enough data to segregate, and it isnt too time consuming, it would be nice to see it by League.

Count me in the "not entirely sure its a big deal but would like to see the data" category.

RE: First-mover advantage? - Bluegodzill - 07-31-2012 01:00 AM

(07-31-2012 12:55 AM)ArtNJ Wrote:  Perhaps OneAlexLeft could post the win-loss data for player 1 and 2. There should be enough data for it by now.

If there is enough data to segregate, and it isnt too time consuming, it would be nice to see it by League.

Count me in the "not entirely sure its a big deal but would like to see the data" category.

You sure you're posting in the right thread?

RE: First-mover advantage? - ArtNJ - 07-31-2012 01:07 AM

(07-31-2012 01:00 AM)Bluegodzill Wrote:  
(07-31-2012 12:55 AM)ArtNJ Wrote:  Perhaps OneAlexLeft could post the win-loss data for player 1 and 2. There should be enough data for it by now.

If there is enough data to segregate, and it isnt too time consuming, it would be nice to see it by League.

Count me in the "not entirely sure its a big deal but would like to see the data" category.

You sure you're posting in the right thread?

Yes.

Specifically, I want to see the data for how player 1 and player 2 are performing across all players/leagues. That is the logical way to look at the SIZE of the FTA. Yes, there must be some FTA, as a matter of logic, but it could well be that its so tiny that we dont need to worry about it. It wouldnt surprise me if P1 is winning say 51% of matches, across the player base, and maybe 53% in Super Titan-Super Titan matches. That is because I dont currently think its likely that the FTA is large in this game. But its all speculation until we see data.

But perhaps you understood me and are simplys stating that their might be a better wait to catch Alex's attention on this?

RE: First-mover advantage? - oneadamleft - 08-01-2012 12:33 AM

Alex has had a couple of house purchasing offers fall through, and is still tied up looking. Really bad timing for a move, but his lease is up soon. He checks the forum more often than I do, though, so I'm sure he's read these requests.

There's a lot of under the hood work to be done getting Outwitters efficient enough to check stats on FTA. We tried a query on it, and processing all that data is proving more difficult than it was in the beta. We're as interested in that data as you are.

Just please be patient; he's getting hit with demands from like every point of contact we have with users.

RE: First-mover advantage? - tamast - 08-01-2012 03:48 AM

(08-01-2012 12:33 AM)oneadamleft Wrote:  Alex has had a couple of house purchasing offers fall through, and is still tied up looking. Really bad timing for a move, but his lease is up soon. He checks the forum more often than I do, though, so I'm sure he's read these requests.

There's a lot of under the hood work to be done getting Outwitters efficient enough to check stats on FTA. We tried a query on it, and processing all that data is proving more difficult than it was in the beta. We're as interested in that data as you are.

Just please be patient; he's getting hit with demands from like every point of contact we have with users.

Great, I hope this will be patched asap - I think there's definitely FTA.

That proved to be the case in Hero Academy and Summoner Wars, and they both just reduce the first player's action points.

In Hero Academy's case, reducing the first mover's AP from 5 down to 3 almost removed FTA, though the first mover still has a slight advantage despite giving up some information by going first:

Details here: http://www.robotentertainment.com/forum/topic/First-Turn-Advantage-Data-3-and-4-ap

RE: First-mover advantage? - wonderpug - 08-01-2012 04:07 AM

Just to be clear, Hero Academy didn't restrict the first player's action points, they just make it easy for the first player to self-restrict. Like you say, though, 3 actions instead of 5 did seem to be the sweet spot for negating the advantage.