Using landscape to your advantage?

[phrenikos]

Hi,

I didn't beta test, so I was wondering if landscape/terrain strategy is going to be implemented in outwitters. I know there's a fog of war already, but what about choke points, elevation in terrain (having an unit there would give you more vision), destroyable objects, different kind of tiles providing different bonuses (movement increase/ reduction, more defense etc)...

[Solan]

I've only seen pics on the blog so i don't know much more than you do, but know there are a few choke point-ish things, and i haven't seen any elevations changes at all. If Outwitters doesn't already have them, destroyable objects and different tiles sound like they'd be fun to play with though.

[Harti]

Do not worry about the chokepoints or FTA too much, you're going to be fine. ^^

Destroyable terrain would make sense, though, but this will most likely have to wait till after release and come with an update.

[phrenikos]

It just adds another spin to strategy turn based games- fftactics comes to mind as an example of a turn based game which used terrain elevation quite well. I also am wondering if all maps are symmetric like the ones shown in pictures. I suppose its easier to balance but the last thing you would want is your opponent copying your every move in outwitters...

[Kamikaze28]

(05-07-2012 03:11 AM)phrenikos Wrote:  It just adds another spin to strategy turn based games- fftactics comes to mind as an example of a turn based game which used terrain elevation quite well. I also am wondering if all maps are symmetric like the ones shown in pictures. I suppose its easier to balance but the last thing you would want is your opponent copying your every move in outwitters...

Mirroring your opponent is highly improbable in Outwitters due to Fog of War.

While reading this thread, I was thinking about UniWars - some might say very similar to Outwitters. It is a turn based strategy game on a hexagonally tesselated field. And it has these terrain based stat modifications. While looking at UniWars, I was overwhelmed by this complexity, to be frank. Sure it adds depth to the gameplay, but it raises the barrier of entry significantly in my opinion. Either you looked up the stat advantages and disadvantages for a given terrain for all available units (because some units benefit from a given terrain while others suffer) or you learned all combinations by heart, which takes time.
I don't agree with this philosophy. Depth can just as well come from gameplay based on simple rules.

[Harti]

Yup, I stopped playing Uniwar as well because my brain couldn't handle like EVERYTHING.

And feel free to mirror my turns, I'll be glad to win against you, then! First blood, ha!

What makes Outwitters so great is the fact that it's easy to pick up but hard to master.

[onealexleft]

(05-07-2012 03:11 AM)phrenikos Wrote:  It just adds another spin to strategy turn based games- fftactics comes to mind as an example of a turn based game which used terrain elevation quite well. I also am wondering if all maps are symmetric like the ones shown in pictures. I suppose its easier to balance but the last thing you would want is your opponent copying your every move in outwitters...

There are no destructible terrain tiles in Outwitters. And if you somehow *did* mirror someone's moves, that generally is a losing strategy as you're following their lead.

[phrenikos]

(05-07-2012 04:42 AM)Kamikaze28 Wrote:  

(05-07-2012 03:11 AM)phrenikos Wrote:  It just adds another spin to strategy turn based games- fftactics comes to mind as an example of a turn based game which used terrain elevation quite well. I also am wondering if all maps are symmetric like the ones shown in pictures. I suppose its easier to balance but the last thing you would want is your opponent copying your every move in outwitters...

Mirroring your opponent is highly improbable in Outwitters due to Fog of War.

While reading this thread, I was thinking about UniWars - some might say very similar to Outwitters. It is a turn based strategy game on a hexagonally tesselated field. And it has these terrain based stat modifications. While looking at UniWars, I was overwhelmed by this complexity, to be frank. Sure it adds depth to the gameplay, but it raises the barrier of entry significantly in my opinion. Either you looked up the stat advantages and disadvantages for a given terrain for all available units (because some units benefit from a given terrain while others suffer) or you learned all combinations by heart, which takes time.
I don't agree with this philosophy. Depth can just as well come from gameplay based on simple rules.

There's alot of depth and content in strategy games as it allows serious players to continually improve their gameplay through learning new ways to give yourself the edge in a match. It's easy for a strategy game to become stagnant as you are inclined to employ the same strategy over and over again (given that you have a good winning strategy) with little to improve on. I think being overwhelmed when starting a strategy game is OK - as it really does show that there is a significant amount of content in the game and it allows players to experiment with new strategies. I understand Outwitters is targetted towards casual and hardcore players alike - so i think adding some content, perhaps in future updates, could encourage players to grow.

[Kamikaze28]

(05-07-2012 08:10 AM)phrenikos Wrote:  

(05-07-2012 04:42 AM)Kamikaze28 Wrote:  

(05-07-2012 03:11 AM)phrenikos Wrote:  It just adds another spin to strategy turn based games- fftactics comes to mind as an example of a turn based game which used terrain elevation quite well. I also am wondering if all maps are symmetric like the ones shown in pictures. I suppose its easier to balance but the last thing you would want is your opponent copying your every move in outwitters...

Mirroring your opponent is highly improbable in Outwitters due to Fog of War.

While reading this thread, I was thinking about UniWars - some might say very similar to Outwitters. It is a turn based strategy game on a hexagonally tesselated field. And it has these terrain based stat modifications. While looking at UniWars, I was overwhelmed by this complexity, to be frank. Sure it adds depth to the gameplay, but it raises the barrier of entry significantly in my opinion. Either you looked up the stat advantages and disadvantages for a given terrain for all available units (because some units benefit from a given terrain while others suffer) or you learned all combinations by heart, which takes time.
I don't agree with this philosophy. Depth can just as well come from gameplay based on simple rules.

There's alot of depth and content in strategy games as it allows serious players to continually improve their gameplay through learning new ways to give yourself the edge in a match. It's easy for a strategy game to become stagnant as you are inclined to employ the same strategy over and over again (given that you have a good winning strategy) with little to improve on. I think being overwhelmed when starting a strategy game is OK - as it really does show that there is a significant amount of content in the game and it allows players to experiment with new strategies. I understand Outwitters is targetted towards casual and hardcore players alike - so i think adding some content, perhaps in future updates, could encourage players to grow.

Fundamentally, this is a matter of taste and opinion. Harti said it quite nicely (or Blizzard did) "Easy to learn, hard to master". I believe in that concept, especially for mobile games. I can explain the rules of Outwitters to you in less than 5 minutes - try that with UniWars. If you find it enjoyable to be challenged by the ruleset of a game, that's fine, but it would scare a large portion of potential players away on iOS.
"Thank you for downloading XYZ - before you start, we strongly recommend you read this short 20-page manual to familiarize yourself with all the rules of the game. ..." -> close -> delete -> forget

There will never be a golden strategy (which defeats everybody). Every strategy has its weaknesses and risks. I would agree with you if we were talking about AI opponents, but Outwitters is all humans. You never know what your opponent is up to in that Fog of War...

[N135]

Uniwar… once you learn to master it, that game is AMAZING!