Veggienauts Bramble - Suggested improvements to initial beta version

[Ravernoth]

Just wanted to offer up a couple of possible improvements to the Bramble.

From what I understand of the Bramble from the description and comments, it is somewhat underpowered at the moment.

Here are the problems:

• Costs significant time and wits to build up range and influence; other specials can have a big impact within 1-2 turns
• Creates a light barrier on 1 hex; other specials have abilities with more game-changing impact
• Weak on offense, ok on defense; other specials are better for both
  

Here are the cool aspects that would be nice to keep:

• Long range
• Ability to create thorn barriers separate from itself
  

Suggested changes:

• Range - Bramble can create Thorn barriers within 2 spaces from any friendly unit (no need for time and wits to build range)
• Thorn barriers can attack adjacent units for 1 dmg
• Thorn barriers have 2 HP
• Bramble can only create 1 thorn barrier per turn
• Bramble has 1 HP, boosted to 2. It can pull strings from your base and doesn't have to be on the front lines.
  

This Bramble would be fun, versatile, and give enemies the same 'uh oh' feeling they get when they see one of the other special units.

It would be useful for attack and defense in many scenarios:
- Attack enemy with your soldier, and finish it off by creating a thorn barrier alongside to deal 1 more damage
- Protect a friendly unit on one side
- Gives runners supplementary firepower (maybe overpowered?)
- Create instant base defense
- Retains its original uses e.g. capping bonus spaces, blocking paths etc

Would love to hear thoughts

[Demon]

Can't really say, since I'm not a Beta tester and don't quite understand the mechanics, but it sounds like it's too much of a wit investment for what you get?

[Harti]

Yeah just keep some ideas coming, there is a chance you'll name something we betas haven't yet thought of.

It *has* lots of potential and in theory it's insanely strong - but there are a few little things (plus a bug that doesn't let you heal it when it's rooted) that are holding down my enthusiasm about the Bramble right now.

[garcia1000]

A unit attacking a bramble from an adjacent square takes 1 damage

[ArtNJ]

Yeah, I'm enthused about the concept, it just needs some buffs of some kind to be viable and competetive with the other specials.

[Demon]

Sooo, from what I understand, it takes 1 wit to bramble a square and it sounds like the bramble itself only has 1 hp, and this makes it underpowered. How much of that was right?

[Necrocat219]

(10-04-2012 06:54 AM)Demonwind66 Wrote:  Sooo, from what I understand, it takes 1 wit to bramble a square and it sounds like the bramble itself only has 1 hp, and this makes it underpowered. How much of that was right?

Actually thats mostly wrong. It's not the stats that make it underpowered but how easily it pays off it's wits compared to other specials.

[Demon]

So what you're saying is movement/health isn't an issue because that's not the use of the unit; rather, the whole point is the ability (similarly, movement/health isn't a major issue for the Bombshell). Correct my numbers if they're wrong, but it costs 1 wit to bramble a hex (and this can be done adjacent to any allied unit?) and the brambles have 1 health and do no damage, and this can only be done once per turn when rooted? I'm just trying to understand how the mechanics work, since I'm not beta.

But it seems like this would require many wits and a lot of time (and therefore early wit investment) to be effective, and would be pretty hard to implicate properly without FTA, yes?

[Necrocat219]

(10-04-2012 09:45 AM)Demonwind66 Wrote:  But it seems like this would require many wits and a lot of time (and therefore early wit investment) to be effective, and would be pretty hard to implicate properly without FTA, yes?

This feels like a guessing game. Sorry for not being clear

Bang on. The stats you guesses were very close so I wasn't saying they were wrong, but the main problem seems to be the large wit investment as Harti had pointed out and the time that it takes to set it up. FTA is close to balanced in the beta so that doesn't really matter.

[Demon]

I think I get it now. You have to produce it (7 wits), move it into position (I dunno it's movement but you could just stay put and spread so this number is rather arbitrary anyway), root (1 wit), and then grow (1 wit per hex). It sounds like it can only grow next to itself or next to hexes it's already covered, so it would be 20+ turns and 30+ wits before your barrier was useful, assuming your opponent doesn't destroy it -but- that could cost your opponent significant resources -then again- you're spending so much time and wits you're going to spend more than you cost them.

TL;DR It sounds about as useful as a heavy.

Again, correct me if I have said anything in error.

Also, what are the rules for growing? Can it only cover 1 additional hex per turn?