2v2 FTA Discussion

GreatGonzales · 09-26-2012, 03:59 AM

There's been a lot of discussion regarding FTA in 1v1 - how big of an issue it is, and what can be done to mitigate it. Let's use this thread to discuss FTA for 2v2. I think it is implicit that the impact of FTA is significantly diminished when there are 2 players on the same team, but then to what extent is FTA an issue for 2v2? Clearly it is better to be P1/P3 than P2/P4. How much of advantage is this? Do we have any data on this? And what should we do about it, if anything?

It'd be great to hear from the major 2v2 players on the forum...off the top of my head: WorldFamous, alexjiang, Mr. Banger.

worldfamous · 09-26-2012, 05:07 AM

I've been meaning to start tracking that. Just based on feel, I'd say the advantage is slim, but I really couldn't say for sure. There are definite early advantages to peck at a base or maybe kill a healer or sniper, but most of those can be dealt with rather easily. I've been meaning to take the time to move all of the 2v2 replays to the first post in the thread, but haven't had the time to get around to it. That's probably the best source of data we have at this point.

alexjiang1 · 09-26-2012, 08:02 AM

I feel there is an advantage as P1/P3. But it's probably not too significant and the second turn can adequately defend, I think since the games generally last longer than 1v1 the FTA diminishes as time goes on due to everyone already accumulating a mass amount of wits. I think in 1v1 the main advantage about FTA is in attacking (correct me if I'm wrong) but in 2v2 it's much easier to defend against attacks.

Mr.Banger · 09-26-2012, 10:45 PM

Agreed. Alexjiang1 and I play 2v2 as 1st and third a lot. Whenever we start our game, nobody seems to be playing. I'd say as p1 and 3 we are somewhere around 40-1 and as p2 and 4 we are 7-1.

aaronINdayton · 09-26-2012, 11:22 PM

I would guess it's larger than we might suspect, but less obvious since there are far less people playing 2v2 seriously.

**Harti** · (This post was last modified: 09-26-2012 11:30 PM by Harti.)

Especially on Machination I've seen issues with that predeployed Heavy. I felt my teammate and I got beat up by a Heavy picking on our base in that preserved niche quite often. So I figured if I moved my Heavy towards them from our first turn on, we'd be able to win just like that. But it turned out it wouldn't work. At all. Like if they had an extra turn to fend it off or so.

And then it became clear to me that we started as P2/P4. Can anybody confirm this finding?

kz0511 · 09-27-2012, 12:43 AM

Little FTA in 2v2, as you can easily defend it as long as you coordinate with your partner, just my experience.

xSkeletalx · 09-27-2012, 02:03 AM

I don't really find FTA to be an issue in 2V2 - it comes down to paying attention to turn order, and removing the threats that go next. As P4 you can take out units for P1 to limit their options, and P2 can do the same for P3. This isn't immediately at the start of the game, mind you.

GreatGonzales · 09-27-2012, 02:10 AM

Clearly 2v2 FTA is not as big of a deal as 1v1 FTA, I think by a large margin. However, it must still be an issue to some degree. The question is, then, is this inequality large enough to warrant some kind of action? It sounds like most people think the answer is no.

Ravernoth · (This post was last modified: 09-27-2012 04:23 AM by Ravernoth.)

Purely looking at the game setup, the FTA advantage is there as well - however I think there are not that many 2v2 teams playing at a high level with coordination etc compared to 1v1, so it's usually not felt very keenly yet.

This is likely to change when overall skill improves.

In terms of wit balance, the fair amount to add to Team 2 is 3 wits, but I don't think OML would want P2 starting with 7 wits and P4 with 6.

In which case, adding 2 wits to Team 2 would be a good improvement.

T1 = Team 1, T2 = Team 2
2 bonus wit spaces per team

Proposed setup - 1 wit extra each for P2 and P4

Code:

Turn           1   2   3   4   5   6

T1 Total Wits  5   5  10  10  16  16

T2 Total Wits  0   6   6  12  12  18

T1 Advantage  +5  -1  +4  -2  +4  -2

'Correct' but asymmetric setup - 2 wits extra to P2, 1 wit to P4

Code:

Turn           1   2   3   4   5   6

T1 Total Wits  5   5  10  10  16  16

T2 Total Wits  0   7   7  13  13  19

T1 Advantage  +5  -2  +3  -3  +3  -3

Current Imbalance

Code:

Turn           1   2   3   4   5   6   7

T1 Total Wits  5   5  10  10  16  16  22

T2 Total Wits  0   5   5  10  10  16  16

T1 Advantage  +5   0  +5   0  +6   0  +6