Special Unit Balance

[Necrocat219]

(09-16-2012 10:04 AM)Necrocat219 Wrote:  

(09-16-2012 09:14 AM)Appleisaac Wrote:  What if scramblers could move attack then move again (with reduced movement the second time). Perhaps that would be OP, but it's just a suggestion.

The whole point of a scrambler is they have a much larger amount of danger and defence associated with them compared to snipers at the cost of wit and no.of attacks (not to mention theyre much more mobile). Plus mortars are known for taking a while to set up after placement P:

I'm sorry scrambler became bombshell In my head for a while there, what I just said was complete rubbish

[MrUseless]

(09-16-2012 10:53 AM)worldfamous Wrote:  I think the scrambler is pretty much perfect. Just think of the wit value of what he can do with 1 wit. Picture him near the enemies base scrambling a boosted heavy. Anywhere from 2-6 wits just to kill the heavy, + 4 wits to spawn your own (minus the 3 health of course) and then 4-6 wits to move him there. So something that would cost between 10-16 wits, cost 1. My formula may not be perfect, but I'm sure you get the idea.

But isn't that offset by the fact that Scramblers almost always end up being suicide units? I know, good players can protect them pretty well, but in my league they are almost always killed on the next turn even with a soldier wall to protect them.

[blckace]

I think the scrambler should start with a base of 2 health and healed up to three, that way it doesn't feel inferior compared to the other special units

[Kamikaze28]

(09-20-2012 09:37 AM)blckace Wrote:  I think the scrambler should start with a base of 2 health and healed up to three, that way it doesn't feel inferior compared to the other special units

During this discussion, you have to keep in mind that the Scramblers ability (independent of every other factor) is definitely the most powerful of all Specials.

• Bombshell: 3 Damage plus 0-6 splash damage, usually 4 damage on average. That's painful.
• Mobi: Teleporting slow units saves you turns and Wits. Okay, that's nice.
• Scrambler: brainwashing an enemy unit not only reduces your opponents presence on the field but it simultaneously increases yours. Your enemy just lost a unit and you gained one - without using your Spawn Space.
  

During beta, the scrambled unit kept its health - if you saw a Scrambler it was basically over for you, it just steamrolled through your defenses like a snowball gathering mass on the way.
Increasing the Scrambler's resilience may cause this style of play to re-emerge.

[vivafringe]

It sounds like the only 2 iterations that were tested were:

A. 2 starting hp, full takeover
B. 1 starting hp, 1 hp takeover

I'm willing to believe that A is too strong, but no one is suggesting we go back to A. Maybe one of these 2 would be fine?

C. 1 starting hp, full takeover
D. 2 starting hp, 1hp takeover

[Kamikaze28]

(09-21-2012 12:27 AM)vivafringe Wrote:  A. 2 starting hp, full takeover
B. 1 starting hp, 1 hp takeover
C. 1 starting hp, full takeover
D. 2 starting hp, 1hp takeover

I'm not 100% certain if there was a period where a method between A. and B. was tested (2 starting hp, 1 hp takeover).

The problem with C. is that once you take over a nice meaty unit like a buffed soldier or heavy, you have on average 1/3 of a wall around the Scrambler already in place. You don't need to hurry your push - as long as your Scrambler survives, you're good. And that's the issue: if the converted unit keeps its health, it is very easy to surround the Scrambler and not let it be vulnerable - so the starting HP don't matter.

[vivafringe]

Alvendor and I played 6 games, and I won 1 of them. As we played I felt like his play sharpened a lot, and by the end I was pretty intimidated. Here is probably the best replay.

outwitters://viewgame?id=ag5vdXR3aXR0ZXJzZ2FtZXIRCxIIR2FtZVJvb20Y1MqiAQw

I played against Alvendor with the assumption that if I stalled long enough, I'd be able to eventually win. But this doesn't seem to be the case against a very good player, who can find relevant cracks in defense. If I were to play him again today, I'd start placing my bombshells more aggressively.

In the end, he agreed that Bombshells are probably the strongest unit. But he also made his point that the differences between the units are slimmer than I thought. As skill increases from the bottom of Super Titan to the top, it seems like aggressive tactics get better and better, while defensive tactics stay largely the same. So in my matchmaking games, my turtle strats crushed the local competition, but they might not be viable at the highest echelon of play.

Maybe Alvendor can chime in.

[Alvendor]

I went into the games thinking I could use a scrambler to trade favorably with a bombshell as long as I setup the attacks correctly. Turns out if the bombshells are put defensively enough that is very hard to do. Best case scenario is that I maybe earn 1 wit on the exchange and worst case lose 3-4 wits.

Vivafringe was also pumping out boosted soldiers which created another problem. I hadn't thought of how well they synergies with the bombshell before. The standard counter to boosted soldiers is unboosted ones as they cost one less wit and trades just as well. But with the bombshell he could one-hit my soldiers, or splash with bombshell and then one-hit with his soldiers.

As soon as I realized this I switched from trying to straight out kill Vivafringe's army to kill off his base by sending in suicide units. It works fairly well as long as the bombshell is far back on the map.

But after these games I do believe the bombshell has an edge on both Glitch and Peekaboo (on Sharkfood I put my money on the mobi). And I agree completely with your conclusion that playing defensively is the easiest way to beat mid/midhigh level players.

Might also add that in the game linked, I had only 6 wits left so not 100% sure I would have won that one.

I found the games we played being the best learning experience I've had in quite a while, so I will probably write down my thoughts in detail in another post when I get the time.

[pookywb]

I've encountered Bombshells on SF a lot recently. Maybe I'm just not attacking soon enough, but my Mobi pushes have so far been completely crushed. (another plausible solution is that I'm just not doing it right. )

[synphonics]

how about the scrambler takes over the unit, but kills itself in the process. The target will still have full health and gain a movement speed buff for that turn (that way maybe mobis, heavies and snipers can escape?)