Scallywag Turtles

[Feedback101]

I've been playing quite a while now. I've really enjoyed it. Top 10 gifted area.

My enjoyment is really being tested by Scallywags who dig in and turtle with two or more bombshells. Early aggression and a little luck is required but if for some reason you miss this opportunity, the best case scenario is a tedious 50+ turn game of attrition and probable loss. Such players often are too gutless to attack themselves.

Anyone else find the scallywag turtle a miserable chore?

[Eijolend]

In my experience a 2 bombshell turtle on the small maps is nearly unbreakable if correctly backed up with other units. While Mobi helps with breaking the defense, the only reliable method is attacking before their mighty soldier wall is complete.
On big maps there's usually enough room to either attack where the bombshells aren't and dealing with only one is enough.
In general Ithink it's hard to beat if p1 just decides "I gonna turtle for 50 turns now."

[garcia1000]

I like that sort of bombshell game with the tactical fighting over every hex. Sorry that you don't like it.

[Syvan]

(09-18-2012 01:37 PM)Feedback101 Wrote:  Anyone else find the scallywag turtle a miserable chore?

Yes, I was really hoping for a unit balance adjustment in the most recent patch. I played a few games this past week hoping that the game had shifted away from turtling, but it seems worse than before. If you want, I can post a couple replays where my opponent sets up an intended slow-push that I defeat with aggression.

(09-18-2012 10:16 PM)garcia1000 Wrote:  I like that sort of bombshell game with the tactical fighting over every hex. Sorry that you don't like it.

The problem is more that turtling with bombshells is incredibly cost effective. Too cost effective in my opinion. On small maps there aren't alternative play-styles that are as safe as simply turtling with bombshells.

Mobis aren't really the answer, since they are so expensive to operate and there is really only 1 attack lane on the small maps. Once that it's locked down it's over. It can be useful on the large maps to simply flank the bomshell and setup a base in their base.

Also, I'm not sure why you are apologizing, you are using and enjoying an effective strategy. I really want to enjoy it, the feature set of the game is awesome, I just get frustrated with games that reward passive play.

[Ravernoth]

(09-19-2012 02:41 AM)Syvan Wrote:  If you want, I can post a couple replays where my opponent sets up an intended slow-push that I defeat with aggression.

Would love to see those Syvan. I enjoyed watching some of your other replays. Shame you aren't in the World Cup tourney! I like Adorables myself but Bombshell turtles are tough to crack.

[Harti]

If we had enough footage of how and why the turtling can break all other strategies, we could present it to OML in order to find better balance among the teams. Best would be to assemble replays of Super-Titans, high Masters or so in this very thread so we could have a look at it.
Talking about it abstractively is not gonna be very useful in regards to grasping the issue. I myself can hardly imagine getting two Bombshells out in the earlygame, for instance.

[Syvan]

(09-19-2012 03:53 AM)Harti Wrote:  Talking about it abstractively is not gonna be very useful in regards to grasping the issue. I myself can hardly imagine getting two Bombshells out in the earlygame, for instance.

I agree. Unfortunately, I don't keep many of those replays because I don't think they are very informative, but I have a couple that might illustrate the points I want to make.

First though, since many people may not make it to the end, I think that this is not necessarily a problem with unit balance, but could be solved by the map pool. If you notice, people don't really complain about bombshells on the large maps. I think the reason for this is that there are multiple attack lanes, which leave one of them weak. By simply exploiting the weak one, it is possible to win. On maps like sharkfood or peekaboo, there is really only 1 attack lane. Locking it down is the key to victory.

If you follow starcraft, initially the game heavily favored Terran over Zerg. In the end, the way the game was balanced was by increasing the size of the maps, which allowed Zerg slightly more time to defend terran rushes.

My point is that a soldier bombshell wall might be intended to be similar to a wall of siege tanks. If it is intended that I should not attack into a siege line, I should be given some alternative.

Sharkfood Island bombshells

This is a game I decided to try out bombshells. Skip to turn 18. You can watch the beginning, but it's bad and I throw away FTA. The game itself isn't a good match, but I want to show you the formation.

Using a soldier wall on sharkfood just behind that gap allows you to maintain a wall that cannot be broken in 1 turn. A buffed bombshell requires 2 gaps to be opened unless you can sneak a sniper into range, which is itself quite costly. The bombshell can then cover the Sharkfood fulcrum, allowing me to position my units into the critical top portion of the map largely uncontested.

Also, in this game between me and Alvendor, he uses similar positioning to lock down the top area. Skip to turn 28. It takes so long because I try to pressure the bombshell right after it is built, but he eventually gets to carry his plan out.

Here's an example I've complained about on Peekaboo. I'm not even sure how this is breakable as Adorable. You can see me trying and failing, leaving me further and further behind. We can theorycraft about mobis but the fact is that the soldier wall supported by Bombshells requires 12 wit in move/attack cost alone to take out 2 soldiers to open the two spaces required to destroy the bombshell.

I think that the logical response to these points is that it is wise to attack before the bomshell is set up. The question is: how do you know whether they have built a bomshell, or are massing soldiers? Each should have a different response, but scouting isn't really feasible in many situations.

In a little while I will post some games where I defeat bombshells, because I do think they can inform anti-bombshell responses.

[vivafringe]

A note: despite what I said in the other thread, the other races can win on the 1-spawn maps when they are 1p. It depends mainly on player skill. OTOH I think it is pretty much impossible to beat me with another race on a 1-spawn map when I am 1p, regardless of player skill.

Here are 2 boring replays where I just do my ordinary build as 1p and the other guy can't do anything. There are maybe a million replays exactly like these, but I don't have links, sorry.

Sharkfood Island:
outwitters://viewgame?id=ag5vdXR3aXR0ZXJzZ2FtZXIRCxIIR2FtZVJvb20Y3NCjAQw

Glitch:
outwitters://viewgame?id=ag5vdXR3aXR0ZXJzZ2FtZXIRCxIIR2FtZVJvb20YwPynAQw

[Syvan]

(09-19-2012 05:00 AM)vivafringe Wrote:  Sharkfood Island:
outwitters://viewgame?id=ag5vdXR3aXR0ZXJzZ2FtZXIRCxIIR2FtZVJvb20Y3NCjAQw

Glitch:
outwitters://viewgame?id=ag5vdXR3aXR0ZXJzZ2FtZXIRCxIIR2FtZVJvb20YwPynAQw

Thanks for better examples than I can provide

[GreatGonzales]

(09-19-2012 04:51 AM)Syvan Wrote:  I think that the logical response to these points is that it is wise to attack before the bomshell is set up. The question is: how do you know whether they have built a bomshell, or are massing soldiers? Each should have a different response, but scouting isn't really feasible in many situations.

+1 this.