Flawed ranking system

[wizzbane!]

I think Outwitters is a great game, so I'm not here to bitch. I haven't played the game for a long time, but enough to realize that the ranking system is seriously flawed, which is odd when you think of how balanced the game is.

Here are some goodies:


Win: Me (rank 36), Opponent (rank 12) - I gain 12 pts, opp. loses 7.

Loss: Me (rank 41), Opp. (rank 9) - I lose 12, opp. gains 18.

Win: Me (rank 38), Opp. (unranked) - I gain 21 pts, opp N/A
Win: Me (rank 32), Opp. (ranked 1 in higher league!) - I gain 26, opp. loses 17.

Loss: Me (rank 35), Opp. (rank 43) - I lose 16, opp. gains 24!


How can any of this make any sense? I gain 21 points for beating an unranked player, then I get 26 points for beating the leader of the higher league (I'm in Clever, he was in Gifted). Then, when I lose to someone just below me (I was 35, he was 43--same league), I lose 16--one less point than the guy who was ranked first and whom I beat!

You don't have to be a statistician and work out a formula to realize that this ranking system is wrong on all levels. And all you veterans who may want to rush and point out that a streak might give you more points and so on ... please save your breath. Even with the streak included, it still makes no sense.

I also figured that the amount of rounds, or the amount of points your castle is left with, might influence the rank, but nope. That can't be it. For instance, in my victory over the guy ranked 1st in the higher league, my castle was left fully intact (5 points).

And I won't even comment on what I think of this promotion business.

Again, this is a great game, and I'm planning on buying the premium version because, even with its flaws, it's worth it! But why create something good and have it spoiled by something that is relatively easier to fix?

[swimj]

Yes, this is a very well known issue. Many previous discussions and explanations on the forum.

Generally league rank doesn't mean much, so don't be confused about losing to someone lower than you but not being punished much. The actual ranking is hidden. However different leagues do mean different skill levels, at least from the game's perception. So that's why you got so many points for beating a master player. Perhaps the reason you got so many points for beating the unranked was he went 4-0 before you beat him so the system was getting ready to put him in masters. That's my guess.

Secondly, I am not so sure how "easy" of a fix this is. People smarter than I have made various points about simultaneous games, FTA which may make accurate ranking complex. I can't really comment but I feel the devs are working on it.

Finally, to any moderator: Until there's a fix in the ladder, can you please sticky a thread explaining the ranking system? It seems we get at least one new thread a day asking the same questions.

[QuantumApocalypse]

Yeah...there are no mods right now. Just Adam and Alex.

As explained in many other threads in times gone by, the displayed rank isn't an indicator of how good the player is and how points are allocated. There is hidden rating for each player which determines leagues, promotions, demotions, and of course - points.

Damage done on the player's base doesn't alter the final points.

If you have beaten someone at the top of your tier and gained only a handful of points, that is an indicator that your hidden rank is higher than the other player, despite their points being shown ranking them higher. If you played against someone below you on the ladder, and the win granted many many points, that is an indicator that their hidden rank would be higher than yours.

Obviously, winning is good for your hidden rank, and losses are bad, so generally, winning a lot without losing (a streak) will be beneficial to your ranking, and should your rating rise high enough, be ultimately promoted sooner or later (depending on percentile within player base, not set rating to achieve.)

[bmike]

(09-04-2012 04:27 PM)QuantumApocalypse Wrote:  There is hidden rating for each player which determines leagues, promotions, demotions, and of course - points.

Damage done on the player's base doesn't alter the final points.

If you have beaten someone at the top of your tier and gained only a handful of points, that is an indicator that your hidden rank is higher than the other player, despite their points being shown ranking them higher. If you played against someone below you on the ladder, and the win granted many many points, that is an indicator that their hidden rank would be higher than yours.

Thank you so much for this clear explanation. I have a list of games where I couldn't figure out why points were awarded on a game - especially in 2v2 random games where I was wondering if points on bases had any calculus. I don't want ever to feel that I should be striking out rather than playing defense and supporting a partner just to grab a few more points in the league. This thought did cross my mind after three games where I had a pretty new player go on the offensive (without chatting about it) and it was all I could do to heal up, defend and keep his attacker from getting cut down. In the end - it now makes sense. The large points were not awarded based on their base being protected or them taking the last shot or doing the damage to houses.

Those players that got lots of points (when I got few) from the win since the system expected them to lose whereas it expected me to win handily.

[Ivandadajet]

Well, to those stating that ranking is not important...then why are you worrying about scores? Have fun and don't worry about it! I on the other hand do care about rankings, I am currently number1 on the Clever league and I feel a bit discouraged by those comments that claim ranking is unimportant, yes and no, is my answer. When I started playing, the game was not making much sense and I forfeited a game or two, another dude was taking about a week to play so I forfeited that too and I was put in the Fluffy league! Later I got bumped to the Clever one but even though I have been on the top for a while for a couple of times now, it does not seem to affect my ranking anymore, I am still number1 but I don't think I will be moved to another league...... I don't know, I still like the game and I'm playing much less because I can't buy anything ( I always get an error when I try ) so I guess my days of being number 1 are counted, I wish I could understand the ranking before I start losing interest.

[QuantumApocalypse]

(09-13-2012 01:03 PM)Ivandadajet Wrote:  Well, to those stating that ranking is not important...then why are you worrying about scores? Have fun and don't worry about it! I on the other hand do care about rankings, I am currently number1 on the Clever league and I feel a bit discouraged by those comments that claim ranking is unimportant, yes and no, is my answer. When I started playing, the game was not making much sense and I forfeited a game or two, another dude was taking about a week to play so I forfeited that too and I was put in the Fluffy league! Later I got bumped to the Clever one but even though I have been on the top for a while for a couple of times now, it does not seem to affect my ranking anymore, I am still number1 but I don't think I will be moved to another league...... I don't know, I still like the game and I'm playing much less because I can't buy anything ( I always get an error when I try ) so I guess my days of being number 1 are counted, I wish I could understand the ranking before I start losing interest.

Well, yes, the league rankings are important as an initiative to play as well as competitiveness, BUT, they are generally not important in improving your hidden rating. It is merely a byproduct of your attempts to alter your hidden rating. If you are constantly winning, your rating will improve and so will your league points. If you are losing a lot, your league points will decrease as well as your league points.

However, having more league points doesn't necessarily mean higher skill, but just more constant playing.

[Ivandadajet]

Yes you are right, it means you are playing more often, but it also means you are winning which reflects your skill.

[wonderpug]

But your score can still increase even if you lose more than you win, so if you see a high score you still don't really know anything about how good the person is. Factoring in their number of games played helps, but even then you have no idea whether their points came from their current league or a much lower one.

[Nkernick]

Ok getting fed up now. Won last 15 games have twice as many points as number two in my league, just beat number one from gifted league. Wtf do I need to do to get promoted. This is silly guys , you are frustrating your users who are all changing usernames . Please can someone respond kinda getting bored

[QuantumApocalypse]

(09-14-2012 03:19 PM)Nkernick Wrote:  Ok getting fed up now. Won last 15 games have twice as many points as number two in my league, just beat number one from gifted league. Wtf do I need to do to get promoted. This is silly guys , you are frustrating your users who are all changing usernames . Please can someone respond kinda getting bored

It's not simply "I win. Why aren't I promoted?"

Initially promotion wasn't the key thing in the game to encourage people to play, but rather ranking in leagues. Just because you have gotten to spot No. 1 in your league and have more points doesn't mean to straight away deserve to be promoted. If you are having win/loss at around 50-60%, you probably won't be promoted any time soon.

The reason people sometimes make a new account is to start afresh with their newfound knowledge in the game, and alleviate their previous losses which were a result of lack of experience.