Heavies to 4 Damage

[Fluffysox]

(09-20-2013 03:08 PM)Doodat Wrote:  Course not. But it seems that playing against the higher level players, you tend to not spawn heavies. And I believe that board space is less of a resource unless you just turtle, and even then, 4 hp soldiers have a greater ability to attack.

How do OSN select which replays to put up? Wud they still have the replay link for Phyresis vs me on glith?

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Also heavies to 4 damage means it is nearly an instant win if u hit a base.

[Mag!cGuy]

If you are able to reach a base with a heavy, that already means you won, even with the current one...

[Fluffysox]

(09-20-2013 03:18 PM)Mag!cGuy Wrote:  If you are able to reach a base with a heavy, that already means you won, even with the current one...

For. Soldier to follow up is pretty hard. However, if heavies do 4, all u need is a runner!

Also if u mobi a sniper the mobi is already in danger, why would mobiing a heavy be any different?

[ElPared]

arguments against this I've seen so far:

1. OMG IT CAN 1 SHOT BS OH NOES! Who cares? a heavy approaching a bombshell should never live to see the next turn, even a buffed one. BS is ALWAYS guarded by soldiers, usually 4 HP soldiers, which makes it near impossible for a heavy to approach it without backup.

2. heavy + runner = win! So? Sniper + soldier = win. 2 soldier + runner = win. A lot of things = win. Just because something means you can win the game with it doesn't make it bad. Mag!cGuy already said if you can get a heavy to the enemy's base you were already winning anyway, and he's right.

3. Mobi & scrambler would make this OP. Mobi and scrambler make a lot of things OP. But since most Heavies are not positioned right next to a base, scrambling a Heavy that deals 4 damage would most of the time not result in hitting a base for 4, which just leaves Mobi which is still better off going with the time-tested Mobi+sniper strategy because it can position itself better that way.

4. holy crap it'd 1 shot boosted soldiers! Big deal. An army of buffed soldiers would still be a problem even to an army of heavies that could 1 shot them. Heavies simply can't move fast enough and are simply not as efficient as soldiers.

Considering a buffed heavy costs almost twice as much to build as a buffed soldier (and DOES cost twice as much un-buffed) I agree it should do twice as much damage. Heavies are so underused and have pretty decent potential strategically if they simply did 1 more point of damage they might actually be useful.

[Mag!cGuy]

(09-20-2013 03:40 PM)Fluffysox Wrote:  

(09-20-2013 03:18 PM)Mag!cGuy Wrote:  If you are able to reach a base with a heavy, that already means you won, even with the current one...

For. Soldier to follow up is pretty hard. However, if heavies do 4, all u need is a runner!

Also if u mobi a sniper the mobi is already in danger, why would mobiing a heavy be any different?

How the heck can you reach a base with a heavy, and then be repelled by your opponent? What I said is that, if you can hit the base with a heavy, that means you totally overwhelmed your opponent and thus that you already won the game before you used your heavy. Or if you didn't overwhelm your opponent, then you wouldn't suicide a heavy to hit the base, so I don't get your point at all.

As for the mobi thing, you again make a comparison that can't work. A mobi would need to be one hex away from the base to make a mobi-heavy combo, whereas it needs to be three hexes away to make a mobi snipe one. Two hexes that change everything. I have never seen a situation where a mobi could sneak a heavy next to a base. Approaching the mobi enough to be in range of the base is way more suicidal if you aim at a heavy hit rather than a sniper one, which makes it squarely impossible. It's the same as for the 4hp bombshell, you take two examples that actually never happen and can't happen to prove buffed heavies would be OP even though everyone knows heavies are currently 1000 times less spawned than soldier. Have you ever seen a game without runner and soldier spawned? No. Even specials are more spawned than heavies, which just show there is a problem in their cost efficiency.

[[PETA] Doodat]

(09-20-2013 03:40 PM)Fluffysox Wrote:  

(09-20-2013 03:18 PM)Mag!cGuy Wrote:  If you are able to reach a base with a heavy, that already means you won, even with the current one...

For. Soldier to follow up is pretty hard. However, if heavies do 4, all u need is a runner!

Also if u mobi a sniper the mobi is already in danger, why would mobiing a heavy be any different?

Because it's so much easier to defend a mobi-sniper and it's also harder to defend against, as it can shoot from a ranged distance. You have to be in melee range to mobi-heavy, and the only time I see that is in a reaper rush.

[Fluffysox]

(09-21-2013 01:58 AM)Doodat Wrote:  

(09-20-2013 03:40 PM)Fluffysox Wrote:  

(09-20-2013 03:18 PM)Mag!cGuy Wrote:  If you are able to reach a base with a heavy, that already means you won, even with the current one...

For. Soldier to follow up is pretty hard. However, if heavies do 4, all u need is a runner!

Also if u mobi a sniper the mobi is already in danger, why would mobiing a heavy be any different?

Because it's so much easier to defend a mobi-sniper and it's also harder to defend against, as it can shoot from a ranged distance. You have to be in melee range to mobi-heavy, and the only time I see that is in a reaper rush.

You can mobi the heavy then move forward 2 spaces with the heavy, making the attach range the same distance as a sniper if it didn't move. You would also have a tank and 1 extra damage.
Anyway, being able to pick off a base with a runner is pretty much an instant lose. Heavies also take a lot of wits to kill. If you are massing soldiers, you need 3 for a buffed heavy = 6-1 wits. That's a whole turn gone, with your soldiers out of position.

[Mag!cGuy]

Third case that is only possible in your imagination: a heavy which would stay alive during one turn after having been teleported by a mobi two hexes away from the base, and which would be able to hit the base.
Trust me, in reality, both mobi and heavy are instantly dead.

Fourth case you're inventing: players kill heavies with 3 soldiers. No one said you have to kill 5hp heavies with 3 soldiers, and, hey, no one does it. Since heavies are extremely slow, players won't send them to attack you on big maps, and on small ones, you will always have a sniper behind to kill that heavy. Anyway, indeed they are harder to kill than any other units. But that is basically their aim: they cost twice as much wits as soldiers, are way slower, so I don't get what is wrong in them being stronger.

I do wonder why you invent your own arguments which can't work in reality to prove something that everyone agrees against. If the heavy was so strong, we would see him on spawn hexes. We don't.

[[PETA] Doodat]

(09-21-2013 06:56 AM)Fluffysox Wrote:  

(09-21-2013 01:58 AM)Doodat Wrote:  

(09-20-2013 03:40 PM)Fluffysox Wrote:  

(09-20-2013 03:18 PM)Mag!cGuy Wrote:  If you are able to reach a base with a heavy, that already means you won, even with the current one...

For. Soldier to follow up is pretty hard. However, if heavies do 4, all u need is a runner!

Also if u mobi a sniper the mobi is already in danger, why would mobiing a heavy be any different?

Because it's so much easier to defend a mobi-sniper and it's also harder to defend against, as it can shoot from a ranged distance. You have to be in melee range to mobi-heavy, and the only time I see that is in a reaper rush.

You can mobi the heavy then move forward 2 spaces with the heavy, making the attach range the same distance as a sniper if it didn't move. You would also have a tank and 1 extra damage.
Anyway, being able to pick off a base with a runner is pretty much an instant lose. Heavies also take a lot of wits to kill. If you are massing soldiers, you need 3 for a buffed heavy = 6-1 wits. That's a whole turn gone, with your soldiers out of position.

You can't move a unit after it is mobi'ed. Key miscalculation.

[Fluffysox]

WHAT. Was this always like this...or...?