Heavies to 4 Damage

[[PETA] Doodat]

(09-17-2013 04:20 PM)Fluffysox Wrote:  1. I have not seen a huge amount of complaints about the one shot of soldiers. Actually, none t all
2. No
3. I use heavies in 2v2, you guys just underestimate them! Having heavies also mean a solid front line, the usual two soldiers won't be able to pick off a boosted heavy.
4. Now you guys are forgetting one thing: another resource. Space to move is also a resource. Would you rather have 3 spaces worth of heavies, or 3 spaces worth of soldiers?
5. If you made a wit comparison, the heavy only needs 1 wit to deal 3 damage. You guys have also forgot how much stuff costs to move and attack. Runners attacking cost the same amount, but only do 1 damage.

Heavies are extremely wit inefficient in spawning and movement. Runners are not meant to do heavy damage. Heavies are extremely hard to position correctly and if your opponent has 3 boosted soldiers and a sniper while you have 3 heavies, I think the former wins, and it costed less to transport.

[boyxoneder]

3 boosted soldiers beats 3 heavies everytime since they get first attack due to their speed. and it cost less to make an transport. I think heavies are very underpowered and very wit efficient and this small change could bring give that unit more uses

[Fluffysox]

(09-18-2013 03:31 PM)boyxoneder Wrote:  3 boosted soldiers beats 3 heavies everytime since they get first attack due to their speed. and it cost less to make an transport. I think heavies are very underpowered and very wit efficient and this small change could bring give that unit more uses

All units are better boosted.

[Fluffysox]

(09-18-2013 03:07 AM)Doodat Wrote:  

(09-17-2013 04:20 PM)Fluffysox Wrote:  1. I have not seen a huge amount of complaints about the one shot of soldiers. Actually, none t all
2. No
3. I use heavies in 2v2, you guys just underestimate them! Having heavies also mean a solid front line, the usual two soldiers won't be able to pick off a boosted heavy.
4. Now you guys are forgetting one thing: another resource. Space to move is also a resource. Would you rather have 3 spaces worth of heavies, or 3 spaces worth of soldiers?
5. If you made a wit comparison, the heavy only needs 1 wit to deal 3 damage. You guys have also forgot how much stuff costs to move and attack. Runners attacking cost the same amount, but only do 1 damage.

Heavies are extremely wit inefficient in spawning and movement. Runners are not meant to do heavy damage. Heavies are extremely hard to position correctly and if your opponent has 3 boosted soldiers and a sniper while you have 3 heavies, I think the former wins, and it costed less to transport.

Where did the sniper come from? Each unit has their own strength. You can't compare it to other units.

Whilst all that is true, a heavy has:
Intimidation factor
Compact space
And since you can only use 1 spawn per turn, that heavy pretty much combines 2 soldiers in one spawn.
Heavies are not hard to position.

---

But let's think of the positive of a 4 attack heavy:
4 hp
4 attack = the Health of a boosted soldier
Also the hp of a shelled, boosted bombshell
Over powered? Yes.

Instead of mobi sniping, the new meta will be mobi heavy + runner. That is an assured 4 damage, plus a pretty easy 1 damage. If that fails, you have a 5 hp shield instead.
If heavies cost 4 and do 4, and have 4 hp, that would be enough to one shot another heavy! Only runners can do that!
Imagine a soldier one shotting another soldier. Op, right?

[[PETA] Doodat]

(09-18-2013 05:45 PM)Fluffysox Wrote:  

(09-18-2013 03:07 AM)Doodat Wrote:  

(09-17-2013 04:20 PM)Fluffysox Wrote:  1. I have not seen a huge amount of complaints about the one shot of soldiers. Actually, none t all
2. No
3. I use heavies in 2v2, you guys just underestimate them! Having heavies also mean a solid front line, the usual two soldiers won't be able to pick off a boosted heavy.
4. Now you guys are forgetting one thing: another resource. Space to move is also a resource. Would you rather have 3 spaces worth of heavies, or 3 spaces worth of soldiers?
5. If you made a wit comparison, the heavy only needs 1 wit to deal 3 damage. You guys have also forgot how much stuff costs to move and attack. Runners attacking cost the same amount, but only do 1 damage.

Heavies are extremely wit inefficient in spawning and movement. Runners are not meant to do heavy damage. Heavies are extremely hard to position correctly and if your opponent has 3 boosted soldiers and a sniper while you have 3 heavies, I think the former wins, and it costed less to transport.

Where did the sniper come from? Each unit has their own strength. You can't compare it to other units.

Whilst all that is true, a heavy has:
Intimidation factor
Compact space
And since you can only use 1 spawn per turn, that heavy pretty much combines 2 soldiers in one spawn.
Heavies are not hard to position.

---

But let's think of the positive of a 4 attack heavy:
4 hp
4 attack = the Health of a boosted soldier
Also the hp of a shelled, boosted bombshell
Over powered? Yes.

Instead of mobi sniping, the new meta will be mobi heavy + runner. That is an assured 4 damage, plus a pretty easy 1 damage. If that fails, you have a 5 hp shield instead.
If heavies cost 4 and do 4, and have 4 hp, that would be enough to one shot another heavy! Only runners can do that!
Imagine a soldier one shotting another soldier. Op, right?

It will not be the new meta.
Mobi'ing the heavy will put the mobi in a terrible position.
Movement is incredibly wit inefficient, as I keep saying. Positional strategy can easily dodge heavies.
This whole thing is comparing heavies to other units.
A heavy is a pretty valuable unit, but it is most definitely not scary in bunches.
It is incredibly hard to mass a big attack with heavies, and the only reason to spawn heavies is for defense.

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You say you "have used heavies in 2v2." I have been watching your OSN games. No heavy spawns in any of your games really. You defend heavies so much but never really use them, why?

[Mag!cGuy]

Heavies are pretty nice to turtle or in situations where they can quickly reach 3hp soldiers, like on foundry.
But they cost so many wits to be placed in the battlefield, that they really are unefficient when you wanna attack with them.

Flurry, the comparisons you are making have actually no sense to be honest. How can you compare three heavies (12 wits) to three soldiers (6wits)? And I prefer to have 3 soldiers than 3 heavies, cuz I can have a plan with them and I would't be obliged to overcommit in my unit placement to be in reach of my opponent as I would be with a line of heavies.
The runner costs one wit, can move by 5 hexes and sees as far, allows to have a bigamount of sneaky plan and can change the ending of a game.
Heavies? They cost 4 wits, and their only strenght is nulified by medics, since it's better to kill a soldier with two soldiers rather than a heavy and runner/soldier. So I actually don't understand where you get this comparison "it deals three damages for one wit" from. And you said yourself afterwards that one can't compare each unit between each other. So, what???

When I see a heavy in front of me, I know I'm gonna have a good time and not a hard one. Thanks to the different units' range, you directly get an advantage with the others because a sniper or a soldier can reach the heavy before it can.

Also, if having one heavy instead of one soldier on one spawn maps was so much better, I guess we would see it in the replays from master to ST. Do we? No, because the only aim of a heavy is to be at 5hp and be hyper defensive, nothing else.

Finally, I am very curious to see any battle where a heavy can reach a bombshell before it gets destroyed by the mortar. So the point " heavy could directly kill bs" is invalid, since it can't happen. I am in favor of this buff, becaue this way heavy would REALLY be spawned. They would have an interest. If this unit didn't exist, the current metagame would be the same, or almost, and that is not normal.

[boyxoneder]

Thank you for the discussion. Heavies are not worth spawning. The top tier of the game is lots of buffed soldiers, some runners for vision, well positioned snipers, and special units. This change to the Heavy incorporates one more unit into the game that can vary strategies. Being slow and expensive spawning a lot of heavies is out of the question, but the 4hp of damage would give the heavy a unique position to deal with the 4hp soldiers and BS. Also I can see this helping veggies, using heavies and with their special unit would be a strong option with 4 hp. I think it is worth testing out I know that this game is not a priority for onemanleft but if they consider outwitters 2 and use these units still, I believe this change would benefit the game.

[[PETA] Doodat]

And I believe that even with this change, no one is going to get to top 20 with heavies only even with this set up. On the flip side, terence is able to get to top twenty just using boosted soldiers (and the threat of a special). So I think boosted soldiers easily have the advantage.

[Fluffysox]

I just want to mention board space! That is a resource!

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Also how do u find me on osn? I can't even find myself? Also, is there a game between me and phyresis on glitch?
Never mind, found myself. Not all my games are on there....?

[[PETA] Doodat]

Course not. But it seems that playing against the higher level players, you tend to not spawn heavies. And I believe that board space is less of a resource unless you just turtle, and even then, 4 hp soldiers have a greater ability to attack.