More Bombshell Trouble

[TheGoldenGriffin]

Bramble can easily block off the middle alley in Reaper. If you can grow thorn patches all the way, they will have to chop through the thorn patches to defend the back door.

[bobolynx]

if bombshells hit harder but had lower health that might work, like scramblers

---

also this veto system sounds brilliant, but i would suggest 2 vetos, maybe 3, but not 4 because taking out all of a certain sized map isn't exactly fair imo

[ElPared]

what makes BS so tough to deal with is it can hit from so far away. Sure, in a vacuum 1 damage from 4 spaces away shouldn't matter. You can put two 4 HP soldiers four spaces away from it, they get splashed for 1 each and then they kill the BS. But when does that ever happen?

it really shouldn't be able to shoot that far is what I'm saying. Even with the "disadvantage" of being unable to move, it's far too easy to defend to allow it to both have 4 HP max AND shoot 4 spaces IMHO.

[[PETA] Cor13:4]

"what makes BS so tough to deal with is it can hit from so far away. Sure, in a vacuum 1 damage from 4 spaces away shouldn't matter."

what makes mobis so tough to deal with is it can teleport snipers from so far away. Sure, in a vacuum 3 damage from a sniper N spaces away shouldn't matter.

I fixed that for ya =)

[ElPared]

(05-30-2013 10:40 PM)Cor13:4 Wrote:  "what makes BS so tough to deal with is it can hit from so far away. Sure, in a vacuum 1 damage from 4 spaces away shouldn't matter."

what makes mobis so tough to deal with is it can teleport snipers from so far away. Sure, in a vacuum 3 damage from a sniper N spaces away shouldn't matter.

I fixed that for ya =)

A sniper still has a squishy max of 2 HP, where a BS gets 4. Snipers also can't kill or damage more than one unit at a time.

3 damage can always kill 2 different standard units in one hit, and also OHKOs unbuffed soldiers, always kills 3 different specials in 1 hit and kils unbuffed Bombshells in one hit, so it always matters, even in a vacuum.

[Mag!cGuy]

Bombshell IS overpowered. We have to either lower its range by 1, either nerf it to 2hp when shelled and unboosted. It is way too dangerous and always gives the map control to the one who has it.

Here, because I forgot to advance my snipe turn 7, he could put a bs in the center. That turn itself made my loss, because a set BS in that kind of configuration is unbeatable. I did make mistakes, but I was forced to, because I had NO space where to put units without having them splashee. Same happened against terence, which explains my rank decrease this week. Yes he is also stronger than me, but in one of our current game I managed to put an early bombshell at the center and now I have the map control and he can't do anything against it. No one can disagree with this, something has to be done.
http://osn.codepenguin.com/replays/view/...20Y897aAww

[ElPared]

(06-01-2013 05:05 PM)Mag!cGuy Wrote:  Bombshell IS overpowered. We have to either lower its range by 1, either nerf it to 2hp when shelled and unboosted. It is way too dangerous and always gives the map control to the one who has it.

Here, because I forgot to advance my snipe turn 7, he could put a bs in the center. That turn itself made my loss, because a set BS in that kind of configuration is unbeatable. I did make mistakes, but I was forced to, because I had NO space where to put units without having them splashee. Same happened against terence, which explains my rank decrease this week. Yes he is also stronger than me, but in one of our current game I managed to put an early bombshell at the center and now I have the map control and he can't do anything against it. No one can disagree with this, something has to be done.
http://osn.codepenguin.com/replays/view/...20Y897aAww

I wish I'd thought of using the term "map control" a long time ago.

BS can easily control large sections of the maps it's deployed on, even if it can only splash. Think of it this way: A Bombshell can attack 60 spaces around it. SIXTY. That's more than a quarter of most maps.

I won't say BS is unbeatable, because it's not, but being able to attack 60 spaces for at least 1 damage is ridiculous. It should only be able to hit what it can see IMHO. I even think removing its pseudovision (showing what it can splash in the FOW) would be a great start.

[Mag!cGuy]

In ST a well used BS is quite unbeatable I don't say you can't win the battle, but you can barely kill it

[[PETA] Cor13:4]

I would have to disagree that bombshells are overpowered by the empirical evidence that nearly all STs play Adorables.

But, for example, most maps, I rarely spawn a bombshell, because the static nature of the bombshell makes it a liability against Adorables players who know how to dance around it and hit the base. Also, since it is costly to create, on larger maps, it has even less utility compared to a mobi, because it can only defend a portion of the map, while a mobi can attack\defend a much larger area and threaten multiple attack routes.

Of course, I'm a Scallies only player =P, so take this analysis with a grain of salt.



General Analysis:

Long Nine - Adorables 4TW. Predeployed snipers prevent deploying soldiers\bombshells too far out of the top of the base. One layer of wall is often not enough to prevent the Mobi snipe-base mechanic.

Glitch - Scallies can rule if they get in a good bombshell, but with the holes, this is ripe for mobi\sniper dancing also.

Reaper - Everybody knows about this, Adorables rule.

Peekaboo - People say Scallies rule, but I've often found that creating a bombshell can lead to defeat, because unit count is often the key factor, and the bombshell can be taken out in a decisive strike since you'll only get a one-soldier wall up (you can play games, but generally this is true). Still, sometimes bombshells rule Peekaboo.

War Garden - Ripe for mobi\sniper combo, as base is very close to the enemy spawn, and hard to build up much of a wall in time for an early mobi. Also, map is quite small, and unit count is so key here, that being able to redeploy units around the map is pretty sweet. Bombshells take too long to create on this map and are too easy to take out or do not defend enough of the map (IMO).

Sweetie Plains - This can be a good map for Scallies. I used to think it was great for Adorables, until I started watching some replays and figured out that you can do some good early bombshells. Still, with the close proximity of the base to the mobi, it's easy to tele snipe the base (IMO).

SFI: Mobi to pull units to the far hexes on top and snipe base over hole = awesome. Bombshells can be good, but generally are not as good here as Mobis, since the snipe over top hex is harder to pull off.

Sweet Tooth - Bombshells can defend nicely though, but Mobis can tele snipe the base, or units and be out of range of retaliation. This is especially true of the one hex spots, like the wit spot, where other races can not take out the soldier there in one-turn, but Adorables can with the mobi snipe + other unit, or move attack, mobi back attacker, attack with other unit combo.

Skullduggery - Like SFI, Adorables I find rules this with the mobi up top and sniper over the hole or just sniper in the top tunnel. Also, the one-hex chokepoint is always an advantage for Adorables. Bombshells can be nice here, but I still find that they are harder to set up than a mobi, since all you have to do is get the base to 3 and tele snipe over the hole.

[Szei]

I think it would be wise to try the "overpowered" team before calling it "overpowered". If Scallywags are really so unbeatable, prove it =P

(I know mag1cguy already said he was going to play Scallywags, so this comment is not directed towards him, but rather, to anyone else who claims Scallywags are that strong without even trying it themselves)

I felt Scallywags weren't too strong way back before the +1 wit change, but I didn't blindly defend them. Rather, I switched to Feedback so I could see why people were complaining. After that I learned a lot regarding the difficulty Feedback faced against Scallywags. More recently (though still around 4 or 5 months ago), I felt that Adorables were overpowered. I didn't go around asking for them to be nerfed though. Instead I switched to them (actually I made a new account) and played them up to ST to help me better understand and decide whether I really felt they were too strong. As it so happens, unlike with my switch from S to F where my opinion changed and I became less sure that S wasn't too strong, my switch from F/S to A has strengthened my opinion that A is extremely powerful and perhaps overpowered. If you've seen my other posts you'll know that I still hesitate to call any of the teams overpowered, but the point is, try the team you think is overpowered before you reach a verdict. And by try I don't mean play 1 game with them. If they are really that good (or "unbeatable") see how high you can raise your rank with the team you perceive as being too strong =)

(06-01-2013 05:05 PM)Mag!cGuy Wrote:  Bombshell IS overpowered. We have to either lower its range by 1, either nerf it to 2hp when shelled and unboosted. It is way too dangerous and always gives the map control to the one who has it.

No one would use it. Even assuming that the bombshell is overpowered now, either of those changes would make it completely useless (at least against Adorables).

Quote:Here, because I forgot to advance my snipe turn 7, he could put a bs in the center. That turn itself made my loss, because a set BS in that kind of configuration is unbeatable. I did make mistakes, but I was forced to, because I had NO space where to put units without having them splashee. Same happened against terence, which explains my rank decrease this week. Yes he is also stronger than me, but in one of our current game I managed to put an early bombshell at the center and now I have the map control and he can't do anything against it. No one can disagree with this, something has to be done.
http://osn.codepenguin.com/replays/view/...20Y897aAww

Well, if you forgot to do something that allowed your opponent to set up a strong position, should you blame it on team balance? You also quickly lose your scrambler without it doing anything (though you were already in a bad spot by that point so maybe it didn't matter). Anyway, I don't think this replay really shows anything. Your 100+ turn game with His_Daddy seems more concerning than this one (though I only skimmed through the His_Daddy game briefly, all those bombshells looks like a pain).