Turtling Discussion

Syvan · (This post was last modified: 07-26-2012 03:06 AM by Syvan.)

(07-26-2012 02:15 AM)crump7 Wrote: There have been other threads, e.g. who is your least favourite player which are only about negativity, but when Syvan posted a match demonstrating this problem and then followed it with:

Quote:I had another game with the same player that I was able to win using 3 mobi's to bust a hole in the turtle and end the game in a single turn. I forgot to save the reply because I was so disgusted.

I apologize for the comment, it was not intended as an attack on the player, but a description of my feeling for how the game went. Generally winning is a satisfying experience, winning in that manner was not.

crump7 · 07-26-2012, 04:56 AM

Thats fair enough, and I certainly didn't want to detract from the very good points you have made about this strategy.

stevewastaken · 07-27-2012, 08:31 AM

Based on my experience against turtling so far, I have to agree with the others in this thread. It's annoying to play against, and it's tough to beat (scallywags especially). The wit system, map design, and scallywag special unit all seem to favor that strategy. Like others have mentioned, you can't really blame the players for this. They are only using a strategy that they feel is the best way to win.

Here's what I would suggest to correct the turtle imbalance:

-Change the Bombshell "shelled" health bonus to be +1 heath, rather than x2 health. This would mean after medic buff, it would have 3hp. 4hp is too much for a ranged unit with splash damage. Compare that to Scrambler, who operates melee, yet can only get up to 2hp.

-Move the bonus wit space(s) to be in a more central (or at least non-defensive) part of the map. This would encourage players to try to be aggressive and win a central/offensive position. Right now there is no advantage to being in an offensive position, unless you have enough momentum to carry it all the way to a full win. There must be incentive to move out beyond the safety of the spawn area.

ArtNJ · 07-27-2012, 10:08 AM

(07-27-2012 08:31 AM)stevewastaken Wrote: -Move the bonus wit space(s) to be in a more central (or at least non-defensive) part of the map. This would encourage players to try to be aggressive and win a central/offensive position. Right now there is no advantage to being in an offensive position, unless you have enough momentum to carry it all the way to a full win. There must be incentive to move out beyond the safety of the spawn area.

This is an excellent point, at least for new maps.

CombatEX · 07-27-2012, 11:00 AM

I don't think the Bombshell should be changed at this point, but I do agree with forward wit spaces to promote more aggressive play throughout the game. In general I feel map changes should be favored over unit changes.

stevewastaken · 07-27-2012, 11:52 AM

Im about to finish up a turtle game that I think clearly shows the imbalance of the Bombshell. I'll post it once it's finished.

xSkeletalx · 07-27-2012, 01:27 PM

Though it's fun to win a crushing victory, I more enjoy matches with some back and forth aggression from both players. The matches where both sides turtle are dull and uninteresting by comparison, with both players refusing to make the first attack, building more and more troops, and hoarding Wits like they may never see another. To me a turtling match just makes me disappointed that I now have a slot filled with a match I won't enjoy, win or lose.

stevewastaken · (This post was last modified: 07-27-2012 07:17 PM by stevewastaken.)

outwitters://viewgame?id=ag5vdXR3aXR0ZXJzZ2FtZXIQCxIIR2FtZVJvb20YoMhhDA

(Keep in mind: from what my opponent says in his chat, he's not a frequent turtler. Which I believe, as there are several times where he could have utilized his Bombshells for even more damage than they already do.)

-I see his turtle supported by a Bombshell extremely early, and I try to play catch up. I get my own turtle up to counter any big push, and because it is too dangerous to push any closer to the Bombshell.

-My catch-up takes a bit of time, and I'm almost certain he has 2 Bombshells by this point. (He doesn't yet, but he will soon).

-I know that the thicker the turtle gets, the more advantage the Bombshell gains, so as soon as I get 2 Scramblers into position (my only hope to break through and hit the Bombshell), I attack.

TURN 21: Look close and you'll see we not only have the same number of units, but almost the exact same types of units as well. (I have one more medic, he has one more scout). This is a near perfect example.

-Even in hindsight I can't imagine putting together a stronger attack. I guess if I left the scout alone and didn't heal the Heavy, I could have attacked with 1 more soldier, but not for a kill.
______
So in the exchange, even though I strike first, I lose 2 Special units (14 wits). My opponent only loses 2 Soldiers and a Special (11 wits). Yes, I do gain those 2 soldiers, but at 1hp they should have been cake to remove. Yes, that does still take 2 wits, but it's also easier to replace 2 soldiers over time than it is to save up for a new Special unit.

More important than the wit exchange, is that there's no other attack I can conceive of that crosses a 3(4) hex danger zone, breaks through a 4hp wall, to then do another 4hp. Because no unit hits harder than 3. So how are you supposed to break it? Trading 2 Special units for 1 Special and 2 Soldiers seems to be the best I can hope for.

CombatEX · 07-27-2012, 05:55 PM

(07-27-2012 05:24 PM)stevewastaken Wrote: outwitters://viewgame?id=ag5vdXR3aXR0ZXJzZ2FtZXIQCxIIR2FtZVJvb20YoMhhDA

Link

stevewastaken · (This post was last modified: 08-01-2012 09:16 AM by stevewastaken.)

No thoughts on the issues regarding my replay?

Can we at least agree that Bombshell shouldn't be able to Unshell and Reshell in the same turn? This essentially makes Bombshell a permanent 4HP unit if you just spend an extra wit or 2. Especially considering no other unit in the game is allowed multiple actions per turn like Bombshell is.