post your Special Unit balancing ideas here

[Gf!sh]

(03-29-2013 08:34 AM)ElPared Wrote:  well, since I don't plan on being a Super Titan any time soon, I feel the Bombshell is still pretty OP at lower levels.

PRO TIP: Play better!

[[-bmoh-]]

Well, given that there are no new teams being supported for the game, why not do a complete remake of the teams that already exist? Maybe this idea is a little "out there", but this is what I was thinking.

When I started playing the game, I saw a couple of different features in it that needed to be managed in order to compete against other players. In other words, a player that effectively increases or reduces these aspects of the game become a better player than their opponents
They are as follows:
Visibility (Fog of War)
Resource (Wits)
Health/Attack (On creatures)
Base Health
Mobility

Then, when gaining a better understanding of the game, I found that the "Big Four" (aka Scrambler, Mobii, Bramble, and Bombshell) had some really odd, albeit fun, effects that didnt seem to match the game's flavor at all.

Essentially, this post in an answer to these questions:
"Why does Bramble lay spikes at all?"
"Why does Bombshell attack how it does?"
"Why does Scrambler steal characters?"
"Does Mobii's teleport effectively convey an archetype?"

None of those effects are shown anywhere else in the game, so why introduce them only on the big four?

Therefore, these are my suggestions:

Mobii
I'm going to start with Mobii because I think this class best conveys what I was thinking the Powerful creatures in the class would be about: Manipulating a restraint, and centering your class strategy around that manipulation.

And Mobii does just that, by manipulating the "Mobility" aspect of the game, the best part of it is that he does so in a way that doesn't also manipulate the Fog of War restraint as well. Mobii allows characters to run to action and then return to safety easily. Because of this, I suggest no change to Mobii.

Scrambler
Scrambler's current effect allows him to steal creatures from opponents, leaving them at 1 health. This is seen nowhere else in the game, and therefore I don't see why it exists.

The Feedback class is full of robots. When I think of robots, I think of Manufacturing. The closest thing a "Manufacturing" effect equates to in Outwitters would be through Wits. Why not make the Scrambler activate a wit hex on the board within your field of vision, or increase "Wit on kill" to two for your team? I feel like those ideas fit the flavor of the game and the class much moreso than stealing does.

Scrambler Change: +1 Wit on Kill, or +1 Wit: Create a random Wit Hex on the board.

Bramble
Now, in my short time playing this game, this seems to be the biggest concern among competitive players and active players in the community. Bramble creates a flavor of "growth" by creating spikes that increase the Fog of War, damage players, and block off mobility. As mentioned in Mobii's analysis, really only one of the restraints should be effected, yet Bramble's current state, regardless of HP or wit on kill, does three of them. Regardless of what changes to the health/damage or anything is done to Bramble, it will always be either a pointless effect or an overpowered one because of the number of aspects of the game Bramble's effect deals with.

The problem is that the "Growth" flavor of Veggienauts is a wonderful idea. But in what other ways can Outwitters create "Growth"?

Idea #1: Spiked Creatures.
In a similar fashion to the medic, and in keeping in the flavor of the current Bramble, what if Bramble gave characters thorns? It would be executed in the same way a Medic is, however, instead of giving them full health +1, it instead gives them spikes, which damage opponents 1 when attacking the spiked creature.

Idea #2: Healing Bases
I always thought the Medic should be able to +1 a base. Why not make a character that gives 1 life of it's own to +1 a base. This effect obviously wouldn't be able to create a base with greater than 5 health. It also will keep the strategy that Veggies seem to have, which is that of a defensive-oriented class.

Idea #3: Creature Growth
The medic does a good job of keeping creatures alive by giving them full health +1. However, what if a Bramble could give Power +1? This runs just like Idea #1 and the medic, but instead of spikes or defense, it gives a power boost to the character.

Bramble Change: Spikes are laid on creatures similar to Medic's ability. Spiked creatures deal 1 retaliation damage when attacked.

Bombshell
In my short playing career, I have found the Scallywags Sniper to be extremely substandard to the Bombshell, which is essentially a super sniper in most aspects.

For the first few games, I thought that the sniper was an Octopus. It is a jellyfish, and I get that now, but I thought it was an octopus. The idea of an octopus stuck in my head, along with the cool flavors that it could provide to the game.

Why not change the sprite of the snail to an Octopus or a Squid, though? It could have the effect of "-1Wit: Lay an ink splatter with a radius of 2 around itself. Ink Splatters create a Fog of War in that area for 2-3 turns".

Bombshell Change: Change from Snail to an Octopus or Squid. Can lay a 2-radius Ink Splatter which creates Fog of War for 2-3 turns.


Again, these are radical changes. But that's what I would do with the Special Units. These changes were made under the idea of giving each class a dedicated area to excel in when looking at the resources the game offers as a means of success.

After these changes would take effect, you would see the following:
Adorables: The "Guerrilla Warfare Attack" class. Specialty: Mobility.
Feedback: The "Manufacturing" class. Specialty: Wit creation.
Veggienauts: The "Growth" class. Specialty: Boosted Characters.
Scallywags: The "Stealth" class. Specialty: Fog of War and evasiveness.

[game_taker]

(03-30-2013 06:47 AM)[-bmoh-] Wrote:  Well, given that there are no new teams being supported for the game, why not do a complete remake of the teams that already exist? Maybe this idea is a little "out there", but this is what I was thinking.

When I started playing the game, I saw a couple of different features in it that needed to be managed in order to compete against other players. In other words, a player that effectively increases or reduces these aspects of the game become a better player than their opponents
They are as follows:
Visibility (Fog of War)
Resource (Wits)
Health/Attack (On creatures)
Base Health
Mobility

Then, when gaining a better understanding of the game, I found that the "Big Four" (aka Scrambler, Mobii, Bramble, and Bombshell) had some really odd, albeit fun, effects that didnt seem to match the game's flavor at all.

The specials current abilities all match the games "flavour". First off you forgot one massive aspect: Unit count.
Now to explain the specials and how the effect the flavours:

Mobi. Effects mobility already but teleporting, but more importantly resources. He can move a sniper to a position that would have cost over 10 resources to get to in the cost of one. Place a mobi near enemy wit location and you harass him more wit efficiently then he can defend it. Currently the main strategy mobi players have devolped though is to Hit + run. This effects the unit count. But hitting and running successfully the the user gains +2 units (1 from killing and 1 from not losing the unit he would have lost if he did not teleport back).

Scramber. Effects simply unit count and resource. He does so by increasing you unit by one and decreasing your opponents by 1, giving you a two unit advantage. The effect on resource comes from having a unit appear in a position that is now in the battle, saving you all those wits to move the unit into that position.

Bombshell. Has the most damage in the game, thus effecting the overall damage you can do. In addition he has the second most health of all units. So he mainly effects health/attack. However his splash allows him to also effect wit resource by killing two units, you gain +1 wit.

Bramble, in my opinion the most interesting of them all.
First the original Bramble: The goal of this bramble was to manipulate your opponents wit. Since you gained now wit on killing a vine, this gave bramble the highest ability to gain a wit advantage over you opponent. Consider taking a wit point with a vine, it cost 1 wit to move to the position to attack the vine, 1 wit to attack the vine, 1 wit lost from losing the wit point, 1 wit to move a unit to take the wit point back. 4 wits lost. That's a lot. Sadly though this bramble did not stand a chance against any bs, and he was to difficult to use correctly.

The current bramble. A bad attempt at balance the previously unbalanced versions of bramble.

(03-29-2013 02:48 AM)CombatEX Wrote:  ...
Alvendor made a proposition a few months back but it didn't seem to really take off. I believe it was removing the ability for the mobi to teleport units which had already moved. This would definitely help, but it would also removing a lot of the strategic potential of the mobi. Anyone have any ideas?
...

I have thought of this idea before. Anything thing you could do is not allow mobi to teleport anyone who has attacked.
The goal of these nerf would be simply to get rid of mobi's ability to gain a easy unit advantage (as I described above).

For bramble: If he is going to have 2hp for a vine, (as many have suggested) they have to take away the wit gained from killing a vine.
Any idea that has been suggested a long time ago, was not let vines attack, no wit on kill of vine, but to counter shells, vines gain +1hp (maxed at 2) a turn. (Obviously they would still have 2hp when spawned).
Although I like the first idea for bramble more.

[TheGoldenGriffin]

(03-30-2013 06:47 AM)[-bmoh-] Wrote:  Mobii
I'm going to start with Mobii because I think this class best conveys what I was thinking the Powerful creatures in the class would be about: Manipulating a restraint, and centering your class strategy around that manipulation.

And Mobii does just that, by manipulating the "Mobility" aspect of the game, the best part of it is that he does so in a way that doesn't also manipulate the Fog of War restraint as well. Mobii allows characters to run to action and then return to safety easily. Because of this, I suggest no change to Mobii.

Mobi has 1 i in his name.

Isn't the scrambler one OP? Does he allow you to make a wit space every turn for a wit like all the other specials? After 5 turns, you could get 5 extra wits per turn.

For the Bombshell idea, i think he should be able to shoot ink at an enemy unit and it turns its vision into FoW. But other units that don't get shot don't have this affect so if there is a heavy right next to a runner and you shoot the heavy, the runner can still see so there is no FoW.

[bobolynx]

My bramble idea Works against scallywags because it would make healing your brambles easier. (to have healing a barrier heal it's parent and grandparent etc)

[ElPared]

(03-30-2013 01:24 PM)bobolynx Wrote:  My bramble idea Works against scallywags because it would make healing your brambles easier. (to have healing a barrier heal it's parent and grandparent etc)

I actually like the idea of medics having more of a role in the successful use of a Bramble, but I think healing a parent to heal all the children would be kind of OP against non-scallywag teams.

before they nerfed it to what we have now (v4 I guess), I suggested that the thorns cost 1HP to make (unless made from the Bramble itself) so the parents would be weaker than the children and thus it'd be easier to take out chains of thorns. It would also naturally limit the number of thorns a single parent could make, unless of course you healed it with a medic so you could spawn more.

though, quite frankly, I don't like that the Bramble can attack now. I liked it as a purely defensive unit where you had to plan your means of attack. I liked Necrocat's idea of allowing thorns to attack, but his idea was to also have attacking destroy the thorn that attacked.

[bobolynx]

I don't think it would be op because a brambles front lines often aren't the same chain, and if they are it makes it only easier to get rid of.

---

And if they did the thing to double back to be next to a medic, it would heal the brambles up to the point of doubling back. It's not the same as healing the parent heals all the children, it's the reverse. I definitely don't think it would be op

---

And to double back is expensive, and to bring a medic to the front lines is like 3-4 wits if you're attacking, which is kind of perfect

---

The point is that it brings the 3 health brambles, but not too strong, supporting non-soldier units :3

[Null]

Adorables, i think are the most powerful in the game. my change i would make for them would be it costs a wit for mobi to suck someone up, then another wit to spit them out. however it gains the ability to hold someone in its mouth and not be forced to spit them out.

Scallywags, most turtling class. without changing all of how the bombshell works, i'd simply install a limit on special characters in the game. there shouldnt ever be a reason to have or need 7+ bombshells on a small map. the limit i'd set would be 3 special characters, but that would apply to all classes. even tho really scallywags would be the one it would effect most.

Feedback right now i feel are weak. i'd give the scrambler +1 wit to start with, and a total of 3 when healed. And maybe only dropping the brainwashed player down by 1, instead of down to 1.

Veggies... Bramble, i feel was a lot of fun last version, i can admit probably over powered a little. not as much as many complained of because i had found with strat changes, they wernt always a huge problem. however right now they are pretty worthless, which is a shame because i think a lot of interesting strategies can come from them. However, i have had many ideas for them and i've seen other good ideas. but for the sake of making them most balanced at thier current version. i'd simply take away the +wit for killing thorns. (still have +1 for killing bramble itself)
and i like the regen idea to help against bombshell.

Personally my idea for them would be to have only the ends of each chain be able to attack. those would then be at 2 health. but all parents would be at 3. this would make it easier to walk through as killing one thorn would drop the parent behind it to 2. but makes it harder to jump a soldier or 2 runners back and kill a whole chain. lessens the offense but doesnt kill the defense of bramble.

[ElPared]

I think that might be too much of a nerf to Mobi. The point of a Mobi is it saves you wits. it'd also be hard to figure out what to do when the Mobi is killed with something in its mouth.

If the Mobi must be nerfed, I think it should probably just have 2 movement instead of 3. At least at 2 movement the Mobi rush on Reaper takes 5 turns instead of 4, and snipers only get to move 4 spaces instead of 5 with it.

I still think Mobi is fine though. It can't attack so it puts you behind on units when you make it, and it's only got 3 HP max so it's easy to kill. Sure its ability is strong, but it seems risky enough to use that I think it's balanced. That's why I think the other teams just need to be balanced to be as strong as Mobi and Bombshell, rather than down to the level of Bramble and Scrambler.

[Ser Purple Wolf]

outwitters://viewgame?id=ag5vdXR3aXR0ZXJzZ2FtZXIRCxIIR2FtZVJvb20YsKCVAww

People like this make me want to quit this game. It's even fun anymore. I have another VvB and he has 4 bombshells! I did blunder when I attacked him and now I'm totally screwed.