Bramble overnerfed

[Gavin Wins]

With the new patch, I've just confirmed that bramble thorns now have 2hp and still provide wit return on kill. The bramble is a completely useless unit now.

The whole reason for the bramble "buff" in the first place was because of how outmatched Veggies were against Scallywags and their bombshell. Wit return on kill made Veggies even worse against Scallywags because it made it possible to kill vines for literally free.

Now, with the newest change, Bramble is incredibly even worse against Scallywags (not to mention against every other race) because unhealed soldiers can now bum rush vines and kill them efficiently. There is literally no purpose to build a bramble anymore. May as well just build a runner and save the wits.

Fixing the bramble is not hard. Their thorns HP should rightfully be lowered to 2hp, but the wit return on kill needs to be removed from thorns. That would create a balanced bramble that soldiers could still counter, while simultaneously not making the bramble worthless.

[blckace]

would like to test its uselessness in a blitz friendly
I'll choose bramble and you scallies?
Invitation is for any good player

[GreatGonzales]

Gavin, which variation of the bramble is more useful in your opinion:

1. 2 hp thorns, no wit for kill, cannot attack
2. 2 hp thorns, wit for kill, can attack

?

This is a close call IMO and will need playtesting.

My thing is, I don't WANT a powerful bramble. I saw what happened to the game when the bramble was a viable strategy, and the game was no longer fun to play. I also do not share your confidence that a bramble having thorns which have the following attributes would be balanced:

1. 2 hp
2. No wit for kill
3. Can attack

I think this may be overpowered once again, since veggies can be very wit efficient with thorns, if they are smart about it, and especially on 1-spawn maps can gain a unit count advantage - especially the new maps having 1 spawn and 2 wit spaces.

All that to say, I am not convinced that a balanced bramble is possible unless a fundamental mechanic changes (i.e. something like what Alvendor suggested, for example). And I would rather OML underpower the bramble than risk overpowering the bramble, given how unfun the game becomes.

[TheGoldenGriffin]

What did Alvendor suggest?

[game_taker]

(03-27-2013 03:35 AM)GreatGonzales Wrote:  My thing is, I don't WANT a powerful bramble. I saw what happened to the game when the bramble was a viable strategy, and the game was no longer fun to play. I also do not share your confidence that a bramble having thorns which have the following attributes would be balanced:

Excuse me???

Your just not having fun because you don't know how to fight against bramble effectively and thus lose every game against it. If a team is overpowered the game becomes less fun regardless.

In addition, it's a lot less fun to have every unit you make be immediately killed the next turn without being able to physically harm those that killed it. I'm talking about anything vs Mobi. I know this from experience, being a feedback player.

I looked you up in OSN, you play adorables mostly according to it.
In summery stop crying.
PS. I have no pity.

[Gavin Wins]

2hp Thorns with no wit return that can't attack is more useful than 2hp thorns with return that can attack. But that describes the bramble 1.0 which was clearly underpowered.

A strong bramble does not make the game unfun. Maybe unfun for you, but it's really fine. its just a different Style of play you have to adapt to.

With 2hp and no wit return, soldiers can counter thorns just fine, which is the reason thorn hp was increased to 3 in the first place. With 2hp and wit return, it is literally always a waste of wits to build a bramble. This change effectively removes bramble from the game.

If we neuter bramble because it makes the game "unfun" then we should remove bombshells too because they "arent fun" to play against. I'd rather play against a bramble than a bombshell spamming scalawag any day.

[Mag!cGuy]

(03-27-2013 03:02 AM)Gavin Wins Wrote:  With the new patch, I've just confirmed that bramble thorns now have 2hp and still provide wit return on kill. The bramble is a completely useless unit now.

The whole reason for the bramble "buff" in the first place was because of how outmatched Veggies were against Scallywags and their bombshell. Wit return on kill made Veggies even worse against Scallywags because it made it possible to kill vines for literally free.

Now, with the newest change, Bramble is incredibly even worse against Scallywags (not to mention against every other race) because unhealed soldiers can now bum rush vines and kill them efficiently. There is literally no purpose to build a bramble anymore. May as well just build a runner and save the wits.

Fixing the bramble is not hard. Their thorns HP should rightfully be lowered to 2hp, but the wit return on kill needs to be removed from thorns. That would create a balanced bramble that soldiers could still counter, while simultaneously not making the bramble worthless.

I can't agree more! 3HP is too hard to fight against, but 2hp is pretty weak. There need to be another thing to balance the 2hp: remove wit for kill.

But, I don't know anyone who finds it fun to play against bramble. And players who have fun being bramble is simply because they win and overwhelm their opponent. Not because it's awesome.

[GreatGonzales]

(03-27-2013 03:49 AM)game_taker Wrote:  Excuse me???

Your just not having fun because you don't know how to fight against bramble effectively and thus lose every game against it. If a team is overpowered the game becomes less fun regardless.

In addition, it's a lot less fun to have every unit you make be immediately killed the next turn without being able to physically harm those that killed it. I'm talking about anything vs Mobi. I know this from experience, being a feedback player.

I looked you up in OSN, you play adorables mostly according to it.
In summery stop crying.
PS. I have no pity.

In truth, I have not played many games against the new bramble, but I have I have watched many replays. But this is the fundamental difference than another potentially overpowered special, like mobi, or unfun like the bombshell:

The strong bramble (now old bramble) was a special unit that changed the way the game is played severely, because suddenly it became prudent to thorn spam. Often, the majority of wits being spent were on thorns, rather than on other units. This is not the case with any of the other three specials, which require a greater variety of tactics and units. This is not, I think, what OML intended for Outwitters. I mean, I don't need to show you a V vs V screen shot, right? It was all thorns, the whole map, all the time. This is different than the impact other specials have on the game.

I think you misunderstood my point. Ideally, we should have a balanced bramble. However, I don't think it's possible given the available movable pieces of the bramble with its current mechanics: 2 hp/3 hp, wit for kill/no wit for kill, can attack, cannot attack. I'm not sure any combination of these is perfectly balanced. So, barring perfect balance, I would rather OML create a weaker bramble than a stronger bramble, because of the negative impact it has on gameplay.

[blckace]

GG is right

[Gavin Wins]

I would actually be happy if they lowered thorns to 1hp but removed the wit return on kill. That seems balanced to me.