Le Bramble v3.1

[Mag!cGuy]

(03-21-2013 02:05 AM)GreatGonzales Wrote:  Yeah but I think the fact that thorns can attack is a big buff to the bramble. But don't get me wrong, I agree with you that bramble is probably going to be underpowered. I just also think that's not such a bad thing.

Agree! A bramble a bit underpowered is a good challenge. A bramble a bit too overpowered is boring as hell.

[ImperialSun]

How can the bramble being underpowered not be a bad thing? You may propose it is better than being overpowered, but I don't see how you can say that it's not a bad thing. Better yes, but still bad.

---

My mistake, you said "such a bad thing", not just "bad thing". There is a difference. I do hope that if it is underpowered which most people seem to think it will be that we will not just let it be but instead strive to put it on more equal terms.

[1ucky]

GG, even if there is no wit return on kill, 2hp thorns will make bramble underpowered.
Soldier hordes will easily make their way through.
So really there is no reason to have wit for kill. If we were to still get wit for kill, bramble wouldn't just be underpowered, but completely unplayable.

[GreatGonzales]

(03-21-2013 04:51 AM)1ucky Wrote:  GG, even if there is no wit return on kill, 2hp thorns will make bramble underpowered.
Soldier hordes will easily make their way through.
So really there is no reason to have wit for kill. If we were to still get wit for kill, bramble wouldn't just be underpowered, but completely unplayable.

I disagree...I think if Bramble thorns can attack, are 2 hp, and no wit return for kill, it's probably going to be overpowered. Perhaps more overpowered than the current situation (maybe but I doubt it).

As I see it, we are talking about three big buffs that we can turn on or off to get the maximally balanced Bramble:

1. Attacking thorns
2. 3hp thorns
3. No wit return for thorn kill

The first Bramble had only number 3. This was underpowered.
The next Bramble had only number 2. This was underpowered.
The next Bramble had numbers 1 and 2. This was overpowered.
Now, it sounds like the upcoming Bramble will have only 1. This will probably be underpowered.
You are suggesting giving the Bramble both 1 and 3; I think that would be overpowered again.

The problem is, each of these 3 buffs swing the viability of the Bramble by a significant amount. As a result, it's probably not possible to get the perfect Bramble; OML will only either be able to overshoot or undershoot that target. After seeing how unfun the Bramble is when it is powerful, I hope they undershoot.

If OML wants a perfectly balanced Bramble, I think they need to fundamentally change the mechanic of the unit; there are many proposals on the table, such as Alvendor's. But I think that is unlikely at this point.

[The F-ing Man]

Maybe I'm just crazy or a noob, but thorns that can also attack, regardless of their hit points, just sucks the fun out of the game.

In the past week I've gone from excited to play Outwitters and figure out how to beat Bramble with Adorables, my preferred team, to maybe checking the app once per day and dreading taking a turn on each open game I have. It's frustrating and boring knowing the only action I can take that won't be instantly countered by my opponent has been to spawn heavies. Since the nerf was announced I've been thinking about wit efficiency with soldiers v. heavies, the range of three spaces v. two, etc., and I've come to a realization:

An opponent's team choice shouldn't force me to limit my unit choices.

I should be able to spawn a runner when I want to see more of the board, a sniper when I want to make shooty-shooty, or a medic when I want a buff. There isn't any point in spawning at least the runner or sniper with attacking thorns, and force-spawning healers and subsequently defending them from thorns isn't a whole lot of fun either. Realisticly, my unit choices are limited to soldier, heavy and mobi. Mobi is pretty weak v. thorns as well. Spawning soldiers and endlessly hacking thorns is, for me, just not fun enough to spend my free time doing.

Am I in the minority here? Help a brother out!

[Harti]

(03-21-2013 05:12 AM)The F-ing Man Wrote:  An opponent's team choice shouldn't force me to limit my unit choices.

While I fully support this statement, I do consider the announced bramble patch a satisfying compromise.
With Thorn Patches at 3 HP, not even Soldiers were a viable counter, so you're limited to Heavies (which are too expensive on the long term) and Snipers (which will get destroyed by the Thorns with ease).

In a usual game you might still have your Medic around so you could spawn boosted Runners to get more vision. However, when there's lots of Thorns around you usually can't see much anyway. D:


I would advise you to give the new patch a couple of weeks. You will eventually notice a slight decline in Bramble usage because the Veggienauts will indeed have problems against 4HP Soldier spam instead of an auto-win like previously. Things are quite likely to sort themselves out... and even if they don't, One Man Left will want track the trends before they make any changes.

[The F-ing Man]

(03-21-2013 05:26 AM)Harti Wrote:  I would advise you to give the new patch a couple of weeks. You will eventually notice a slight decline in Bramble usage because the Veggienauts will indeed have problems against 4HP Soldier spam instead of an auto-win like previously. Things are quite likely to sort themselves out... and even if they don't, One Man Left will want track the trends before they make any changes.

Perhaps the answer for those who feel as I do are to just take a break. I'm no more interested in endlessly spawning soldiers than I was in endlessly spawning heavies.

Is it safe to assume OML also tracks total games played? If so, do they publish it? I'd be curious to see if there's been a significant dropoff in the number of games.

[ElPared]

I do see giving a wit on kill for a 2HP thorn as kind of lame, especially vs Bombshells where they can easily splash a patch of thorns a couple times and come out with 2+ free wits. Thorns are especially vulnerable to this because they can't be easily spread out to counteract it like with regular units.

I hope they remove wit on kill in the patch, I hated playing Veggies when the response to a Bramble was "spawn more soldiers," which they were doing anyways.

Honestly I think Bramble was fine at 3HP thorns with nothing else.

[blckace]

United citizens of Outwitters
I want to sort this out so hear what I have to say

I think this change is the right move to balancing The Vegginauts
Let's consider the matchups after the latest change

V vs F equal
V vs A equal
V vs S slightly under powered (solved by regenerating thorns or no changes at all)

Let's be reasonable, I somehow feel that people who want the bramble to be more powerful want to spawn nothing other than thorns
AND THAT IS VERY WRONG
If you look at the current state of vegginauts the only thing happening is boring thorn spam
That's not how things should be, it should be a mix of spawning units and thorns and developing strategies and if we look at things that way the bramble won't be underpowered, it will be equal to the other teams
And I am against removing the wit on kill

[TheGreatAnt]

(03-21-2013 06:08 AM)blckace Wrote:  United citizens of Outwitters
I want to sort this out so hear what I have to say

I think this change is the right move to balancing The Vegginauts
Let's consider the matchups after the latest change

V vs F equal
V vs A equal
V vs S slightly under powered (solved by regenerating thorns or no changes at all)

Let's be reasonable, I somehow feel that people who want the bramble to be more powerful want to spawn nothing other than thorns
AND THAT IS VERY WRONG
If you look at the current state of vegginauts the only thing happening is boring thorn spam
That's not how things should be, it should be a mix of spawning units and thorns and developing strategies and if we look at things that way the bramble won't be underpowered, it will be equal to the other teams
And I am against removing the wit on kill

Not removing the wit for kill will just set up a soldier rush. Heavies will be pushed back into the spawn, and snipers will be even more rare at the risk of thorns (unless behind a wall of soldiers).

Yes it will make Veggies harder to use, and I see many people switching and never taking a look at Veggies again because it is fairly easy to defend against with a wall of soldiers that can take them out as easily as heavies used to.