Bramble v3

[CombatEX]

I agree with OML's statement that defensive strategies tend to lag behind any metagame changes. As such, keep in mind that the following is just a suggestion based on preliminary analysis provided by others as well as what I've witnessed in replays and my own games. We certainly should consider the proper changes to test carefully, and I am by no means suggesting this is a definitive fix. Especially given the fact that OML has access to the live server data, they will be able to make a more informed decision.

That being said, here is how I see it. Veggienauts have an advantage against Adorables and likely Feedback. Against Scallywags, Veggienauts *may* still be disadvantaged. Assuming Veggienauts > Adorables, Veggienauts > Feedback, Scallywags > Veggienauts, then here is a suggestion.

Overview
Thorn HP: 3 → 2
Wits for killing thorns: +1 → 0
Other: Thorns return to 2 HP at the beginning of each turn (unless the thorn is at 3 HP from being buffed)

Veggienauts vs Adorables/Feedback
Thorn HP: 3 → 2. Why? The main problem with fighting the Veggienauts is that they effectively have more spawn spaces than their opponent. A Veggienaut player can overwhelm his/her opponent with thorns. Each turn you can make many thorns, but your opponent has to use up an attack to kill each one (well, you can kill a parent, but the idea is if the Veggienaut player is smart s/he can spawn more thorns than you can kill). Essentially your opponent is spending their attacks to clear away thorns and doesn't have enough 'attack actions' to deal with your actual units. Lowering thorn hp to 2 will allow your opponent to make more units more cost efficiently (soldiers) that can deal with the thorns. This should help prevent Adorables and Feedback from becoming swamped by a ton of thorns. But won't this make Veggienauts worse against Scallywags which is the opposite of what we want?

Veggienauts vs Scallywags
The second change is removing wits from killing thorns and making thorns return to 2 hp at the beginning of each turn. This decreases the wits a Scallywag player gets from killing a clump of thorns with a bombshell and makes thorns less susceptible to splash damage on subsequent turns of shelling. It is a slight buff against Adorables and Feedback too, but the nerf to 2 hp should outweigh this dramatically. The fact that soldiers can be used to deal with thorns is huge. This type of buff to Veggienauts (regenerating thorns) also helps Feedback as it makes scrambling thorns more viable (since the thorn will return to 2 hp on the opponent's turn).

[garcia1000]

Gf!sh,

Nice graphs!

[PowerCrazy]

(03-18-2013 07:02 AM)CombatEX Wrote:  I agree with OML's statement that defensive strategies tend to lag behind any metagame changes. As such, keep in mind that the following is just a suggestion based on preliminary analysis provided by others as well as what I've witnessed in replays and my own games. We certainly should consider the proper changes to test carefully, and I am by no means suggesting this is a definitive fix. Especially given the fact that OML has access to the live server data, they will be able to make a more informed decision.

That being said, here is how I see it. Veggienauts have an advantage against Adorables and likely Feedback. Against Scallywags, Veggienauts *may* still be disadvantaged. Assuming Veggienauts > Adorables, Veggienauts > Feedback, Scallywags > Veggienauts, then here is a suggestion.

Overview
Thorn HP: 3 → 2
Wits for killing thorns: +1 → 0
Other: Thorns return to 2 HP at the beginning of each turn (unless the thorn is at 3 HP from being buffed)

Veggienauts vs Adorables/Feedback
Thorn HP: 3 → 2. Why? The main problem with fighting the Veggienauts is that they effectively have more spawn spaces than their opponent. A Veggienaut player can overwhelm his/her opponent with thorns. Each turn you can make many thorns, but your opponent has to use up an attack to kill each one (well, you can kill a parent, but the idea is if the Veggienaut player is smart s/he can spawn more thorns than you can kill). Essentially your opponent is spending their attacks to clear away thorns and doesn't have enough 'attack actions' to deal with your actual units. Lowering thorn hp to 2 will allow your opponent to make more units more cost efficiently (soldiers) that can deal with the thorns. This should help prevent Adorables and Feedback from becoming swamped by a ton of thorns. But won't this make Veggienauts worse against Scallywags which is the opposite of what we want?

Veggienauts vs Scallywags
The second change is removing wits from killing thorns and making thorns return to 2 hp at the beginning of each turn. This decreases the wits a Scallywag player gets from killing a clump of thorns with a bombshell and makes thorns less susceptible to splash damage on subsequent turns of shelling. It is a slight buff against Adorables and Feedback too, but the nerf to 2 hp should outweigh this dramatically. The fact that soldiers can be used to deal with thorns is huge. This type of buff to Veggienauts (regenerating thorns) also helps Feedback as it makes scrambling thorns more viable (since the thorn will return to 2 hp on the opponent's turn).

Nice post. And honestly, the original bramble was fine. It required a bit of care to use it properly, but other than vs Bombshells it had a lot of "niceties" that other race specials didn't have. Map Control and wit tile harassment being huge ones.

I would like to see the current bramble stay but only 2hp thorns, and no wit for kill, regenerating thorns would be nice too for anti-bombshell defense.

[Mag!cGuy]

outwitters://viewgame?id=ag5vdXR3aXR0ZXJzZ2FtZXIRCxIIR2FtZVJvb20Yh-KOAww

War Garden is awesome

[GreatGonzales]

I am currently in an extremely frustrating tournament match with hifimatlock, in which he has a bramble and I don't. I thought, surely, things have to be going my way before long, as he continues to make hugely wit inefficient moves: for example, using 7 wits to kill a 2 hp sniper, and then on my turn I require only 4 wits to remove all thorns AND respawn my 2 hp snipe. Yet, despite this happening numerous times and gaining a large unit count advantage, this being sweetie plains, he has overwhelmed my wit space side of the map, and there's not much I can do.

Bramble is just way too wit efficient, it's ridiculous. I am forced to defend multiple lanes due to sustained threat of well-established thorns. Never been so frustrated in Outwitters. I may yet win, but it will be a long and tedious struggle. Taking a loss from this nonsense seems more likely at this point, since hifimatlock is a good player.

[Son of Troy]

Bramble = God like in the right hands. But I ain't complaining just hit that nerf button lol

On another topic new chararcter idea even though it's probably been said "ZoMbieS" with the reborn ability, I can see the soldiers now with there rip jeans and dirty blazer awesome!

[GreatGonzales]

I know the most popular solution to the bramble seems to be making thorns 2 hp, and remove wit return on thorn kill. Thinking about this...I'm torn. On the one hand, bramble can still be quite wit efficient, given that he can remove units from the board using thorns, get a wit for the kill, and then the opponent won't get wits returned from killing the thorns. Issue of exponential growth remains...though, I think the crux of the matter is the fact that thorns are 3 hp. 3 hp thorns are only susceptible to snipers, which are easily picked off by thorns, and heavies, which are not very cost effective/expensive. With 2 hp thorns, the non veggie player could build up a soldier army to force the veggie player to cease thorn harass and build units of his own. Still, I think it could use some beta-testing.

[Porceveer]

(03-18-2013 06:38 PM)W1cked21 Wrote:  outwitters://viewgame?id=ag5vdXR3aXR0ZXJzZ2FtZXIRCxIIR2FtZVJvb20Yh-KOAww

War Garden is awesome

You post quite a few replays, but show me ONE replay where your oponent actually played a good Bramble. No offence but the people you played were actually really bad with it, made horrible witinefficient moves or even missplaced the weed itself. Doesn't really prove anything.

[jeradvelezdallas]

Here is an example of a win against Bramble. ... Still seriously dislike bramble though.
outwitters://viewgame?id=ag5vdXR3aXR0ZXJzZ2FtZXIRCxIIR2FtZVJvb20Ys-uHAww

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Just had an idea. What if spawning a patch from patch cost the spawner patch a HP? It starts with 3hp and is limited to two patches. This leaves the patch with one or two HP, making killing it more manageable once you have torn through the first layer of patches. Im thinking a heavy followed by a runner. This would also force Bramble to spawn more direct patches instead of spawns from spawns. Comments??

[baopu]

(03-18-2013 04:29 AM)BuzzleBee123 Wrote:  Is anybody else really afraid of playing league games? O_o

I only play league games... Maybe because I have no friends :,(