Bramble fix - game examples included

[Alvendor]

(03-16-2013 11:57 AM)Giu-BR Wrote:  Alvendor and blckace, this looks like a very elegant alternative to just dropping thorns' HP to 2. With the added benefit that the veggie player probably needs to use other units rather than just spamming branches. Thanks for putting the idea to practice and generating the examples. I'll try to play a few matches like that and report the replays.

I wonder if you guys have also tried the alternative of allowing only the bramble (and not thorns) to have more than one child. While this would eventually allow for over spamming, having to start each branch from the bramble, might offer the time and wit-differential for the opponent to defend.

Finally, if the option of only one child for everybody holds, I would suggest allowing them to prickle the opponent's base, in a similar way that bombshell's splash damage can hit it. Thoughts?

I think allowing bramble to branch into several "strains" is the main reason it it so hard to balance. Take thorn gulley for example: allowing several branches, you put one bramble at your middle wit space and it can branch out left, middle, and right and you have all the thorns you need. On Reaper or Glitch on the other hand, branching to both sides of the map will block your snipers in one way or the other. So branching and not making more than one bramble viable makes it way harder to balance than the other races.

Now by only allowing one strain, any balances to the bramble will not cause these fundamental changes to the gameplay we've seen with the last update.

If it turns out one strain with the current rules are two weak I think your suggestion is good to think about of letting thorns attack the base. Other things could be allowing thorn to be receded after it has attacked, or the quite powerful allowing thorn to attack and spawn a child in the same round. But the main point is, these kind of changes are much easier to balance if only one strain is allowed.

[Alvendor]

Lost against poweewee on thorn gulley. From this game bramble feels a bit weak, but I could have had better placement of bramble and soldiers...

outwitters://viewgame?id=ag5vdXR3aXR0ZXJzZ2FtZXIRCxIIR2FtZVJvb20Y_PKHAww

[Alvendor]

Spawn point steal and silent max out on 23 wits!

outwitters://viewgame?id=ag5vdXR3aXR0ZXJzZ2FtZXIRCxIIR2FtZVJvb20Y4qCIAww

[GreatGonzales]

One problem with implementing this change Alvendor - if OML brings this in a patch, it will affect currently ongoing games already having a bramble using the current rules. I don't know how that will work, given that suddenly the veggie player will have potentially many brambles which should be impossible...from a coding perspective, that could be a difficult obstacle. All other patches that have come through have affected ongoing games, I assume it would be the same here.

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Would be harder than, say, merely changing bramble hp to 2.

[Gavin Wins]

The bramble is fine. Just change thorn hit points to 2 and remove the wit return on kill. Done.

[Ryzuma]

(03-17-2013 08:34 AM)Gavin Wins Wrote:  The bramble is fine. Just change thorn hit points to 2 and remove the wit return on kill. Done.

[Alvendor]

(03-17-2013 08:11 AM)GreatGonzales Wrote:  One problem with implementing this change Alvendor - if OML brings this in a patch, it will affect currently ongoing games already having a bramble using the current rules. I don't know how that will work, given that suddenly the veggie player will have potentially many brambles which should be impossible...from a coding perspective, that could be a difficult obstacle. All other patches that have come through have affected ongoing games, I assume it would be the same here.

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Would be harder than, say, merely changing bramble hp to 2.

My guess is it wouldn't be possible and they would have to apply the changes only to games created after the patch. So yeah 2hp would definitely be the easier change. 2hp could even be balanced overall?! But as it functions so differently to other specials we would still have thorn swarming strategies and great imbalances between maps.

Would be cool if some lower league players tried it out and gave their experience with only one strain of thorns. *hint hint* you fluffy-to-master player!

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(03-17-2013 08:34 AM)Gavin Wins Wrote:  The bramble is fine. Just change thorn hit points to 2 and remove the wit return on kill. Done.

Many consider the combination of 3hp and wit return on kill to not have been a buff at all.

[Thrutchy]

This seems like a reasonable solution for bramble. I think the root of the problem is that each thorn is a spawn point - of thorns. Now that thorns can attack, this becomes a huge advantage. If this fix is too crippling, here are a few ideas:

- allow a thorn to attack, grow, and recede in the same turn
- attack by 2 - probably too much
- healing a healed bramble heals its closest non-healed thorn
- no wit for killing thorn

Another option is to remove the ability for the thorn to attack and leave recede. But the multi-spawn (defense) seems like it still could be dangerous.

[connor34911]

Alvendor-I am respectfully very against you idea. I think that this could still be useful for very very skilled players. If this change was implemented I'd go back to adorables for 100 percent of my matches. It may work for you but you are by definition better than everyone in outwitters. I dont think it would work for anyone outside of the top 100-200 players.

[Alvendor]

(03-17-2013 02:59 PM)connor34911 Wrote:  Alvendor-I am respectfully very against you idea. I think that this could still be useful for very very skilled players. If this change was implemented I'd go back to adorables for 100 percent of my matches. It may work for you but you are by definition better than everyone in outwitters. I dont think it would work for anyone outside of the top 100-200 players.

After playing some more I tend to agree, what I suggested is too weak.

I'm still convinced it is better to only allow one strain and balance that than trying to balance what we have now.