'Real' Tips/Advanced Strategy?

[jaesonwu]

So no offense intended for the people who helped contribute to the tips page or the general advice I've seen given around the forum, but it hasn't been very useful for me. Why? Because it's largely common sense to anyone who has played TBS games in the past. I'm not trying to sound immodest, because quite frankly there are a ton of better players than I am. I'm currently in Masters going about 50/50 against other Masters. This means I have huge room for improvement, but I don't really know how.

The thing is, all those tips pretty much amount to general experience in TBS games. I feel like it's common sense to me because I have played many TBS games in the past and as a result am pretty decent at them. However, the difference is while I know how to play TBS in general, I don't know how to play Outwitters.

The type of tips/strategy that I'm looking for are the things that the best players do to differentiate Super-Titans from Masters. Masters players will clearly understand everything posted in that thread... but there is that little extra something which is needed to get to Super-Titan. A deeper understanding of the game. It's kind of hard to convey what I mean, but I hope you guys understand.

I understand that a lot of this in-depth strategy is situational. As such, I am not asking for specific strategies, that will come with experience along with being map dependent. Rather, general things like being more defensive, harassing, etc. what is the most efficient way to play from which one can then build upon with map and position specific strategy? Things like, do Super-Titan players generally play more defensively? Is that the more efficient way to play? Or do Super-Titan players harass resource nodes more? When a Super-Titan has FTA do they tend to try to capitalize on it early by pushing with a large force? Or is it generally better to sit back on your advantage and exploit it by sending units like scouts to harass?

Generally when I have FTA I do the latter where I use scouts to harass early and try to pull my advantage further either by picking off units like medics and snipers whose positions I can predict or harassing a resource node. But this is the kind of thing I'm not sure of. Is it better to be more aggressive early? Again, this is very map dependent, but just some general info would be nice.

I have a feeling I'm going to get responses along the lines of, "Super-Titan players are just Master players who have played enough to get a better grasp of the game. It just takes time as you encounter more situations and learn how to react to them better." This is a huge part of SC2. Playing enough games to be exposed to more situations. So yes, know that I understand this and ultimately practice will help. But I'm not looking for this answer, I understand that already.

[nivra0]

Hmm... I'm not a Super-Titan yet, but here are some tips I've started to glean.

Understand the difference between the factions. Skally's are much more defensive b/c of their special unit. That's their strength. Adorables are more offensive, and Feedback are both.

Understand map flow based on spawn points and wit points. Peekaboo is a great example of this. Flow tends to happen counter-clockwise due to the way the spawn points are positioned. What can you do to take advantage of this? If you're building a Skally defense, place your bombshell to counter their offensive. Also understand that the initial few moves may have clockwise flow due to the position of initial units.

Understanding wits: When deciding whether to perform an exchange, calculate the wit value of what you will lose vs. what they will lose, including buffs and/or movements. e.g. if you buff a runner and then hop it twice across the board to kill a sniper on their spawn, you've spent 5 wits while they've only lost 3 wits. Remember that a piece that's within one move of your own spawn only has one extra wit value due to movement even if you've moved it 4 times to get it there. This isn't the only determining factor behind an exchange. Obviously, board control, momentum, and other issues apply, but this should help.

[ArtNJ]

Post some replays.

There are some map-specific plans, but to offer guidance at a general level would be very hard without some examples to work with.

[Harti]

There are plans (particularly from Kamikaze28, ArtNJ and myself) to get something like a strategy column rolling. But where plans are, there's always barriers too:

1 - If there was such a column, wouldn't reading it bring all readers to the same level of skill? Is that what we want?

2 - Is our point of view good enough to call it advanced strategy and is it really the best way to go?

3 - If people begin playing like this, is this going to be the new orthodox metagame which can once again be exposed by unorthodox strategies?

4 - Writing walls of text is not only cumbersome but also tough to read; screenshots cost even more time to prepare; making videos/replays would either require (interesting) games with active opponents or a "scripted" unranked game between two strategists - so the question is the "HOW"

5 - Also, "WHERE" to put it in a way the media elements (images, videos) can be embedded?



All that needs to be answered first, then we'll need to think of as many advanced stuff that's going on in our heads and then we could go for it

[Syvan]

(07-17-2012 05:45 AM)Harti Wrote:  1 - If there was such a column, wouldn't reading it bring all readers to the same level of skill? Is that what we want?
2 - Is our point of view good enough to call it advanced strategy and is it really the best way to go?
3 - If people begin playing like this, is this going to be the new orthodox metagame which can once again be exposed by unorthodox strategies?
4 - Writing walls of text is not only cumbersome but also tough to read; screenshots cost even more time to prepare; making videos/replays would either require (interesting) games with active opponents or a "scripted" unranked game between two strategists - so the question is the "HOW"
5 - Also, "WHERE" to put it in a way the media elements (images, videos) can be embedded?

As for point 1, I think an educated player base can only improve the game. Even into high masters I saw some egregious mistakes (you beta testers who couldn't get The Algorithm rank up don't count). Besides, the only people benefitting from obscurity are the people with the most experience.

2 - For now at least, the beta testers are the best source of strategy. You have by far the most experience of anyone and have more than likely been analyzing the cost-benefit tradeoffs of various forms of play. Besides, this weekends games against you, Josue, and ArtNJ have made me question whether I should even be playing on the ladder until I understand the game better. The level of the beta-testers has been astronomically higher than almost everyone else I've played.

3 - I think the best way to achieve this is to post the replay with a discussion of the critical points in the match. Between high level players, there are likely to be fewer "You should have probably taken the wit space on turn 1" comments and more "Poor scouting failed to the reveal heavy wit investment on the north side of the map." Even in games that take a long time, it was probably due to a miscalculation early in the game. The discussions about what decisions to make and why they were made incorrectly could be interesting.

[Sakiehl]

(07-17-2012 05:43 AM)nivra0 Wrote:  Understanding wits: When deciding whether to perform an exchange, calculate the wit value of what you will lose vs. what they will lose, including buffs and/or movements. e.g. if you buff a runner and then hop it twice across the board to kill a sniper on their spawn, you've spent 5 wits while they've only lost 3 wits. Remember that a piece that's within one move of your own spawn only has one extra wit value due to movement even if you've moved it 4 times to get it there. This isn't the only determining factor behind an exchange. Obviously, board control, momentum, and other issues apply, but this should help.

That's good advice, it's a good way to evaluate decisions. If you are able to create a "profit" on wits over the course of the game you should be able to have the deciding advantage when you decide to attack.

I've been thinking this through more lately in terms of whether or not to take a wit space that I won't be able to hold. Sometimes it is enough of a distraction that they won't be able to accomplish much else on their next turn.