Yet another bramble thread

[awpertunity]

So there has already been quite a bit of backlash from the new bramble update, some of it warranted and others unwarranted. The two main complaints seem to be that they are 1) overpowered, and 2) not fun to play against. I don't agree with 1) but I do agree with 2). First, a video on the first point:

perfect imbalance
(too long didn't watch : it's good for games to not be perfectly balanced (i.e., every race has an equal chance to beat every other race), but is good to have counter races and strategies and such)

There are many other videos by these guys that cover some similar topics too that are worth checking out but I won't post them all here.
Unfortunately, while this is true that Veggienauts can be countered, I think the real issue is the skill required to do this.

balancing for skill

The new bramble is a very high power unit now that requires very low skill to use and an incredible amount of skill to counter. A lot of people have been posting replays of how to beat the Brambles, but I don't think this is going to help the lower level players too much, because it requires a lot of skill to do this successfully.

Now, more importantly, a video on the second point:

counter play

This is what I see as the problem with the new bramble. Using the new bramble is a LOT of fun, and gives you soooooo many new options and strategies you can do it's crazy, which makes them a lot of fun. On the contrary, I do agree that they are not fun to play against, which defeats the purpose of the game for the casual gamer and I fully understand a lot of peoples' frustrations on the forum. It isn't just the fact that they can't beat them, but it is not even fun anymore.

This I actually agree with, even though I am one of the players that does know how to fight against/counter the bramble, it is not that much fun to do so... The reason is that the number of options or strategies you can use to successfully counter the bramble are so limited.



So what needs to happen?

Maybe these points will go together, but in regards to the first point there needs to be either an easier way to counter brambles or using brambles successfully needs to use more skill.

This was actually perfect with the bombshell/adorables. Bombshells are very easy to use and have a decent amount of power associated to them. But once you learn to use the adorables, which requires a lot more skill to use, but has a reward associated with it! But now the bramble is probably the easiest to use unit, AND the strongest, which is the problem. Note that I say they might be the strongest, but not to the point that they are overpowered, the problem is how easy it is to put this power in hand.

I don't see any reason new players would use adorables now since they have such an easier option available to them that has just as much power.

In regards to the second point there need to be MORE ways to fight against brambles, not less. Right now it's basically snipers at first, until your medic gets taken out, at which point you need heavies. Having little map control because of this and simply fighting off bushes really does make this not fun to do, and this is the only way you might win.


Now how to get there is a whole 'nother question that is a very difficult one. Maybe the 2 HP thorns would work since this would allow the more mobile soldiers to also fight the thorns off. Maybe having it cost a wit to root and recede thorns would work since it raises the skill required to use them effectively. Regardless, I do believe something does need to change before more new/lower players aren't turned off the game completely.

As some posts mentioned, users have created forum accounts for the sole purpose of voicing their unhappiness and lack of enjoyment playing the game against the new bramble, which should be viewed as a very big problem by the designers. For each player that even took the time to voice these opinions, who knows how many there are that agree or have just stopped playing altogether out of frustration.

[blckace]

There's a very easy solution to this problem
In my opinion having 2 HP regenerating thorns would solve everything
Works against bombshells which were the most difficult for Veggie players
And it won't affect game play against the other teams

[poweewee]

These threads regarding the new bramble are sprouting like thorns of the bramble itself. LOL

Anyway, I do agree that any combination of
A) reducing thorn HP to 2,
B) retracting thorns costing 1 wit,
C) thorns may attack only on the turn after they are sprouted
may solve the problem.

[awpertunity]

(03-11-2013 06:56 PM)poweewee Wrote:  These threads regarding the new bramble are sprouting like thorns of the bramble itself. LOL

Haha, we just need to find and eliminate the parent thorn then...!

[Ser Purple Wolf]

Thank you for actually thinking this through and not just pulling the OP card. People, including myself, used to think that the bombshell was overpowered, but it really wasn't; I just didn't know how to play against it. Now the new Bramble is out and it's quite powerful, and people are scared so they'd rather label as OP instead of NEW.

As far as I can tell, they've never nerfed anything so far, and (I'm hoping) they never do.

[Mrdemaria]

Call me a "noob" or call me what you will, but I personally do not find enjoyment playing boards filled with brambles. Im not saying its "OP" or whatever, Im saying I went from last month playing 30+ games against every race to now 75%+ of my games are against veggies. And for me I find it not fun. I will take a few weeks off, I stopped creating new games. Maybe the bramble hysteria will die down, I will play solo and try to view the pros and revamp and tinker with a few strategies, but please take note and just hear me out. People are finding this bramble thing "un-fun". Outwitters is a game that is supposed to be "fun". If people do not have "fun" with it they may stop playing. If you like veggies and find it fun, so be it. I'm not mad at ya, but on the same token dont be mad at me for complaining in a public forum. That is what the forum is for; giving feedback both positive and negative.

[laYahooz]

The best idea I've heard was LIMITING the amount of children bramble can have.

EX) maybe Bramble can only have great grand children.

This would make bramble a ranged unit. Thus, he would stillbe powerful, but not unfun to play against since you can have a little map control against him.

[Alvendor]

Good post Awpertunity, I agree on all points. There is a problem with how easy it is to mass thorns for causal players. But I'm surprised how quickly people became convinced it is too strong in the higher leagues!

I guess this will be yet another suggestion how to fix things, but here we go:
Receding any thorn will remove all that bramble's thorns - prevents the thorn swarming tactic everyone hates. It is the same as not allowing receding thorns but allows feedback to remove scrambled thorns (feedback needs a bit of love).
Brambler can uproot, move, root, and create thorns in the same turn - gives skilled players more to work with.

This will increase the skill requirement for good veggie play and make it fun at all skill levels.

[jimbo2shady]

(03-11-2013 11:16 PM)laYahooz Wrote:  The best idea I've heard was LIMITING the amount of children bramble can have.

EX) maybe Bramble can only have great grand children.

This would make bramble a ranged unit. Thus, he would stillbe powerful, but not unfun to play against since you can have a little map control against him.

I like this idea the best and you could make it so that they have a 7 or 8 hex range, atleast it will make the Veggie team setup their Bramble where it will be a little easier to get to. Instead of it being hidden to far and too deep to get to at all.

[GreatGonzales]

Good post awpertunity. Though I haven't played around with the new Bramble much, your interpretation of the current state of affairs seems to ring true.