OML - Where is the 2v2 love?

[GreatGonzales]

I've been wanting to write a post like this for some time now. I feel that there is a disappointing amount of developer support for fans of Outwitters' 2v2 mode. I will document the evidence for this below.

However, first I think it's important to note the reason why there is disappointment here - it's because the 2v2 mode is so good! One of the main reasons I was attracted to Outwitters was because of its built-in 2v2 game mode. I had been an avid Hero Academy player (probably Outwitters's biggest competitor in the asynchronous mobile strategy genre) and I can tell you that there were many in that community who wished for a team mode. Well, OML came along and developed an awesome game with a 2v2 mode built in, complete with a league promotion system and everything. I switched to Outwitters and never looked back. We want 2v2 to shine because it is such a key feature that Outwitters offers.

According to a recent survey I conducted of the Outwitters forum community, nearly one third (28% of 57 respondents as of writing this) reported that they are either "Mainly 2v2" players or that they play 1v1 and 2v2 equally. Despite such an avid player-base, ongoing developer support for 2v2 players has been lackluster. Here is why:

No Top Player Ranking Lists for 2v2
Makes sense to start with the most well documented complaint. I was thrilled when Alex started sharing updates to the top 1v1 players in August of 2012. This made Outwitters extremely exciting, as there was tangible feedback from in-game success that went beyond the highest league of Super-Titan (indeed, most of the top 200 players now are not even ST). However, there has never been such a list released for 2v2 players. This is very frustrating for top players who put so much effort into becoming a top team. OML has tried to improve the division point system, with some success, but this remains highly dependent on team activity. As such, division rankings are necessarily inaccurate and arbitrary; they are not an alternative to providing a top player list akin to what 1v1 receives weekly.

Now, it has been theorized that there is some technical issue related to management of 2v2 league data which prevents Alex from providing such a list. But OML has been entirely silent on this issue despite numerous petitions, so all we can do is wonder. It is hard to remain excited about top 2v2 league play when there is no tangible reward for your efforts.

And this issue is exacerbated by the fact that....

Super-Titan League Promotion for 2v2 is Broken
The 2v2 league has been running since the game launched in July of 2012. 7 months and hundreds of 2v2 league matches later, there are only 2 Super-Titans. What gives? I get that Super-Titan league is supposed to be limited to the very tippy top of the population, but surely it can be opened up a bit so that there are - I dunno - 10 ST teams? This issue is inextricably related to the one above, and it wouldn't be so frustrating if there was a 2v2 top list. But we don't, so it's frustrating.

OML Has Never Featured a 2v2 Match
I refer to the weekly featured 1v1 match that accompanies every top ranking list update. Speaking from experience, it's a point of pride to have your replay featured in this way (even if you are the losing player). There are PLENTY of 2v2 replays available that are worthy of being featured. Why not recognize the skill of some of these top teams? Especially considering that 2v2 is arguably more complicated than 1v1 given the added element of turn order.

No FTA Fix for 2v2
Admitedly, this is not agreed upon even within the 2v2 community - namely, that FTA is a significant enough problem for 2v2 to warrant a fix. I asked this question in my survey: 56% of respondents (controlling for "Mainly 2v2" players and players who play 1v1 and 2v2 equally) feel that significant FTA exists in 2v2 and should be fixed; 31% believe that FTA exists but it's not significant enough to fix, and 12.5% believe that there is no FTA for 2v2. (I should point out, though, that mathematically there IS 2v2 FTA; so this 12.5% is just factually wrong). This has been discussed in several threads already, including here and here. However, I was thinking about starting a new thread myself, because I feel that 2v2 FTA is emerging with increased significance for high level play. There are a number of well-known early bombshell strategies that make it difficult to be P2/P4, especially on Blitz Beach and Machination. While a solution has not been agreed upon, I think we can get close - I propose wit allocation of 5/6/6/7, for example (giving P1/P3 11 starting wits; P2/P4 13 starting wits). Something like this would be an improvement, I think, over the current state of affairs.

No New/Remixed Maps On the Way
Beta-testers, correct me if I am wrong, but the only new maps that are under consideration for addition to the game are 1v1 maps; nothing new for 2v2. It's too bad, since 2v2 players could use some fresh new material given that there are only 4 2v2 maps. Hopefully OML will throw us a bone! I also asked a question about this in my survey, and there is some significant desire within the 2v2 community for some new or remixed maps. The biggest offenders currently being Blitz Beach and Machination.

Hopefully, this thread spurs OML to act in some way. These sentiments are rampant among 2v2 players, at least among the top. I see that worldfamous just posted a thread of his own, for example.

OML - PLEASE SHOW 2V2 SOME LOVE! <3

[connor34911]

+1 agreed!

[laYahooz]

I find the lack of maps most disappointing. It makes 2v2 more dull since you see the same strategies, especially against top teams, over and over again.

Also that's a great point you make saying that there never has been FEATURED 2v2 GAME. I personally find 2v2 replays more exciting to watch.

Also there is an FTA in 2v2 that must be fixed. Those who say there isn't don't play enough 2v2 or are too good (alex and mr. Banger)

[CombatEX]

You make some great points. I do hope that they take the time to implement your suggestions. However, I understand if it doesn't happen. OML has already gone above and beyond considering the problems they have had with Outwitters and profitability. Most developers don't even show a fraction of dedication to their games even when they are a major success. The fact that OML has shown such support and continued updates for free and their game wasn't even successful from a monetary standpoint is amazing. This kind of support helps restore my faith in game developers.

So, I do agree that it would be wonderful for OML to do what you request, but I just want to be clear that I don't expect anything further.

Now to address specifics:

- In the beta we are considering 2v2, but I won't say any more than that at the moment.
- Featuring 2v2 games is something that is very easy to do and requires little work so this can be done starting with the next week top 200.
- The rest of your suggestions (fixing ST, FTA, top 200 2v2) are great and I do hope OML can implement them sometime in the future

(02-17-2013 04:55 AM)GreatGonzales Wrote:  OML has tried to improve the division point system, with some success

Sorry, I laughed. The previous point system was better. The latest one is the worst so far (at least from what I've seen). Though not ideal, I'd rather them just go back to the previous zero-sum point system and start everyone at 1000 points instead of 0. This would be decent for a temporary solution.

[GreatGonzales]

(02-17-2013 05:19 AM)CombatEX Wrote:  Sorry, I laughed. The previous point system was better. The latest one is the worst so far (at least from what I've seen). Though not ideal, I'd rather them just go back to the previous zero-sum point system and start everyone at 1000 points instead of 0. This would be decent for a temporary solution.

Eh, I guess I added that in their to throw them a bone. I actually don't pay attention to the division points very much since they don't really signify skill.

[Alvendor]

(02-17-2013 04:55 AM)GreatGonzales Wrote:  No FTA Fix for 2v2
Admitedly, this is not agreed upon even within the 2v2 community - namely, that FTA is a significant enough problem for 2v2 to warrant a fix. I asked this question in my survey: 56% of respondents (controlling for "Mainly 2v2" players and players who play 1v1 and 2v2 equally) feel that significant FTA exists in 2v2 and should be fixed; 31% believe that FTA exists but it's not significant enough to fix, and 12.5% believe that there is no FTA for 2v2. (I should point out, though, that mathematically there IS 2v2 FTA; so this 12.5% is just factually wrong). This has been discussed in several threads already, including here (Samura's thread) and here. However, I was thinking about starting a new thread myself, because I feel that 2v2 FTA is emerging with increased significance for high level play. There are a number of well-known early bombshell strategies that make it difficult to be P2/P4, especially on Blitz Beach and Machination. While a solution has not been agreed upon, I think we can get close - I propose wit allocation of 5/6/6/7, for example (giving P1/P3 11 starting wits; P2/P4 13 starting wits). Something like this would be an improvement, I think, over the current state of affairs.

Samura's thread above explains it clearly why 2+ wits for P2 and 1+ wit for P4 creates the most balanced play with each team getting a lead with 3 wits depending on who's turn it is (after the initial 4 turns).

I guess you can argue that the asymmetry is bad but this is a competitive game, let's make it as balanced as possible!

[Gf!sh]

(02-17-2013 04:55 AM)GreatGonzales Wrote:  No New/Remixed Maps On the Way
Beta-testers, correct me if I am wrong, but the only new maps that are under consideration for addition to the game are 1v1 maps; nothing new for 2v2. It's too bad, since 2v2 players could use some fresh new material given that there are only 4 2v2 maps. Hopefully OML will throw us a bone! I also asked a question about this in my survey, and there is some significant desire within the 2v2 community for some new or remixed maps. The biggest offenders currently being Blitz Beach and Machination.

You're very wrong.

[GreatGonzales]

If indeed new 2v2 maps are on the way, that's wonderful. But, there are still other issues to be addressed.

[alexjiang1]

@LaYahooz, the reason behind our 2v2 FTA isnt a big issue is because when we are P1 (which is most of the time), our opponent gets out of the opening fine, usually, our BS gets out later than theirs! Even on Mach and Blitz Beach. We have 3 losses now as P1, all on CCM and 1 as P2 on BB (my mistake) and about to suffer another one on CCM as P2 (yes we've lost 3 out of our last 4, been taking a break from 2v2 for some time). Maybe its because we dont take advantage of our P1 or our methods are outdated, but for some reason, weve never felt a significant advantage going as P1 and never felt disadvantaged as P2

[CombatEX]

There doesn't need to be a significant advantage to warrant an FTA fix. Just look at the numbers and you'll see Ravernoth's suggestion just makes things more even.