Bramble on par new take - 'prickle' action

Ja Karta · 02-12-2013, 05:18 AM

This is the change that I initially hoped that they would go with. As it potentially increases tactical possibilities in some instances on both ends greatly and could just be "fun". (Though I worry it might trivialize some encounters actually making tactics less complex.)

I would suggest two things though:
1) A killed unit ought to be replaced by a 1HP barrier. This represents the damage being done by the thorns growing into the space. It's more for style and conceptual consistency, but those actually count for a lot. Smile

2) Thorns can't damage bases. (That would be easily OP.) This seems like a random addon unless you include #1. You can't grow a barrier into a base square so you naturally can't attack it either.

Maybe:
3) Even though I much prefer 3HP thorns (much more fun), the inability of soldiers to kill them probably makes this OP from the standpoint of taking out snipers. Both should be tested, but 2HP thorns makes more sense off-hand.

4) Too complicated, but: Ideally you'd only be able to do damage to a unit if it had thorns on either side of it (i.e. they could surround and crush). This would decrease OP sniper attacking. I think it would be much better tactically (as straight "prickle" is a little facile, whereas this requires some forethought). However, from an interface standpoint and I doubt A&A would allow it.

maconbot · 02-12-2013, 06:12 AM

Ja Karta...would ur idea include destroying a branch and all of its children if it prickles?

If so it may not make as much sense deploying a 1 hp branch where enemy died, if its parent branch just uprooted when launching a prickle.

I agree with bases not being being attacked.

I agree to fully balance drop the hp back down to 2, but no wit award for killing.

Could also do a random fun thing...a branch deploys at 2, but on next turn grows to 3 as matures (graphically flowers or fruit appear on a matured branch)...this would then keep the wit grant when destroying

Necrocat219 · 02-12-2013, 06:48 AM

I'm curious, how good are Veggies at Gifted level and below? Whilst a Team can be underpowered at the highest levels of play it doesn't mean that thas the case at lower levels as peoples playstyles are different. In fact there have been case that at avarage level a certain characted has been overpowered because the opposing players didn't do what high level players did, resulting in a character meganerf (If anyone is interested I'm talking about Evelynn from League of Ledgends and how medium players, including myself ^^'', disliked buying wards)

GoHeat 3 · (This post was last modified: 02-12-2013 07:03 AM by GoHeat 3.)

(02-12-2013 06:48 AM)Necrocat219 Wrote: I'm curious, how good are Veggies at Gifted level and below? Whilst a Team can be underpowered at the highest levels of play it doesn't mean that thas the case at lower levels as peoples playstyles are different. In fact there have been case that at avarage level a certain characted has been overpowered because the opposing players didn't do what high level players did, resulting in a character meganerf (If anyone is interested I'm talking about Evelynn from League of Ledgends and how medium players, including myself ^^'', disliked buying wards)

I've seen my brother win in 6 turns before on Glitch with Bramble!^_^ he's Clever! Yeah from what I've seen from his replays, Mobi is ok, BS is good and so is Scrambler!

maconbot · 02-12-2013, 03:25 PM

I liked the old bramble in gifted league. New bramble just takes longer, forces snipers and adds wits. Makes him less powerful.

worldfamous · 02-12-2013, 03:51 PM

(02-12-2013 03:25 PM)maconbot Wrote: I liked the old bramble in gifted league. New bramble just takes longer, forces snipers and adds wits. Makes him less powerful.

That's interesting that you feel that way. It's true that bramble is worse vs snipers, heavies, and bombshells, but those units are relatively rare and definitely slow. In the few games I've played as bramble, I find him much stronger. Opponents used to deal with the thorns pretty quickly. Now they tend to work around them, allowing me to grab wits and really put a chokehold on them. I'm not saying that happens easily or often, but definitely much more so than before.

ElPared · 02-13-2013, 04:53 AM

in Clever, I've found Veggies perform best on Sweetie Plains. Any map where they can cut off points of advance and use that to their advantage. Sometimes Thorn Gully or Reaper are like this, (except vs Adorables on Reaper). They're competitive with other teams in Clever, but they're clearly still not quite ready for the big leagues yet. I recently decided to switch from them to Adorables (because I'm tired of Feedback mirrors) because of that.

I feel like they were designed for Guerilla style tactics, using a smaller force of units to take on a bigger force, while putting up a cheap but strong defense against the opposition. Sadly I feel like Adorables accomplish this better.

maconbot · 02-13-2013, 05:02 PM

(02-12-2013 03:51 PM)worldfamous Wrote:
(02-12-2013 03:25 PM)maconbot Wrote: I liked the old bramble in gifted league. New bramble just takes longer, forces snipers and adds wits. Makes him less powerful.

That's interesting that you feel that way. It's true that bramble is worse vs snipers, heavies, and bombshells, but those units are relatively rare and definitely slow. In the few games I've played as bramble, I find him much stronger. Opponents used to deal with the thorns pretty quickly. Now they tend to work around them, allowing me to grab wits and really put a chokehold on them. I'm not saying that happens easily or often, but definitely much more so than before.

I would use the no wit reward to my advantage. They'd build warriors and it would cost 4 wits to take down a branch. I'd be down with trying a friendly against you to see what you mean. Currently I like playing against them as I know their weaknesses.

I think the changes we have going are spot on. My vote:
Prickle for 1 hp dmg, range 1
Prickle uproots branch and children
Branches start at 2 hp
No wit reward
Branches can't prickle bases

Here are 2 replays of play styles I'm seeing in gifted league:
outwitters://viewgame?id=ag5vdXR3aXR0ZXJzZ2FtZXIRCxIIR2FtZVJvb20YwvjjAgw

outwitters://viewgame?id=ag5vdXR3aXR0ZXJzZ2FtZXIRCxIIR2FtZVJvb20Yg_bkAgw

Necrocat219 · 02-15-2013, 04:13 AM

Just a note I completely forgot where the idea came from - AyrenZ first suggested it in our game so credit goes to him. Sorry AyrenZ!

joelduque · (This post was last modified: 02-15-2013 04:25 AM by joelduque.)

How about 1 hp damage to the unit that deals the killing blow for each bramble/thorn killed? So a BS which 1 shot kills 4 thorns would die too. Forces the BS to hit 3 thorns only per turn so it would not die and a nearby medic to heal the it more frequently.