More Bombshell Trouble

[amoffett11]

I just played this guy and remembered this thread, so I expected the bombshells to be coming, so I just rushed him. It worked pretty well: Replay

[daHsu]

Glad I helped... don't mean to hate, but I hate bombshell turtlers. Just beat him again on glitch, which is one of the hardest stages against turtlers, IMO.
outwitters://viewgame?id=ag5vdXR3aXR0ZXJzZ2FtZXIRCxIIR2FtZVJvb20YgPzLAgw

[GoHeat 3]

Lol! Just thought of a post TheQwertiest made on the "Outwitters Memes" thread.

"wow! youre so skilled at scallywag turtling..."
-said no one ever

[TheQwertiest]

(02-02-2013 09:09 AM)GoHeat 3 Wrote:  Lol! Just thought of a post TheQwertiest made on the "Outwitters Memes" thread.

"wow! youre so skilled at scallywag turtling..."
-said no one ever

haha. i remember that.
during that time, every game i started was with people turtling using scallywags.
but i admire people who can use scallywags aggressively.
a great example would the replay between garcia and boypj on SFI.
the team i have the most difficulty in using is actually scallywags.
-i dont know how to turtle
-playing aggressively is very hard.(with scallywags) (for me)

[amoffett11]

(02-02-2013 09:25 AM)TheQwertiest Wrote:  -i dont know how to turtle

You say that as if its hard to turtle. I'd say more like you aren't willing to stoop to turtling. I think turtling is an easy way to get to Masters, but just turtling won't move you much further up than that.

[FeederTerror]

I dislike the BS a lot I think they are too powerful and give unfair advantages. Have played Reverse DP myself and did not have any issues with him spawning BS's but that was Glitch and I rushed him from the start so he did not have the chance to spawn them.

However I have played various other opponents who do the turtling thing with the BS's. I had to sit and wait 2 turns on one game to manoeuvre my guys in to position. By the time I was in position and killed the BS there was another behind it and another come up a couple of turns later. Very frustrating. Although I love to see a BS being used offensively and in a creative manner.

[Mag!cGuy]

BS are totally overpowered, I sometimes wonder how I could have won when I lose against them. I agree with amofett, BS is for players who have neither rush skills and reach master for defending well and counter attacking when opponent doesn't have any units anymore..

[CombatEX]

Bombshells overpowered? I hope you are either a Feedback or Veggienaut player where that mentality could be reasonable. If you play Adorables though then I'm not sure what you're talking about. Going bombshell against a good Adorables player is often a losing strategy. OSN ST replays are dominated by Adorables and to a lesser extent, Feedback. Scallywag replays are few and a Scallywags player winning against an Adorables player using a bombshell in a meaningful way is rare in recent weeks (judging from other ST players I've asked, personal experience, and uploaded replays). Scallywags need to overwhelm the Adorables player with standard units when the Adorables player gets out a mobi. If Scallywags don't shutdown the mobi play before it gets going and instead let the Adorables player turtle, the Scallywags player will be in a lot of trouble.

If you play Adorables and somehow lose to defensive bombshells, you're attacking too quickly. Just sit back, turtle, and the Scallywags player will have no answer since s/he sunk so many wits into defense. There has been a role reversal in the AvS matchup. Where before Scallywags benefited from turtling, now Adorables do instead.

Okay, so I went on OSN and looked at your recent replays (past 2 weeks). Out of the 11 games you have where you play Adorables against a Scallywags player who got a bombshell, you lost 4 of them.

Game 1
In the Reaper game, it has nothing to do with Bombshells being OP. You opened with what looked to be a mobi sniper rush, but then pulled back without doing anything. This already set you behind as with a rush like that, you better do some damage or you've already fallen behind in wit efficiency after the first few turns. (EDIT: I elaborate on this in my next post, but your choice of unit spawn is also a critical component of your loss).

Game 2
In the Long Nine game you try to do an attack with your mobi, losing your mobi and sniper. This puts you behind once again. Try sitting back with the mobi until you clearly have something to gain from an attack.

Game 3
As for the SFI game, you should have gotten a sniper by now or saved some wits instead of continually getting soldiers and putting them in the back where they aren't as useful. I know "hindsight is 20/20", but in general one of the best strengths of Adorables is the potency of using snipers in tandem with the mobi. If you had gotten a sniper instead of sinking wits into the last 2 soldiers which aren't useful against a bombshell while sitting in the back of your army, you could have taken out the bombshell.

Game 4
The Sweetie Plains game was rather interesting. I haven't ever seen bombshells utilized that way, though it turned out to be pretty strong. However, on Sweetie Plains even more than most maps, the opening turns are absolutely critical. Whoever can get the offensive initiative and force the opponent on the defense will be in a strong position for the remainder of the game. Usually this is done by pushing the side wit space, but the bombshell threat on your center wit space worked too. However, this is only because you had an unorthodox opening in your first few turns. I'm not sure what your plan was healing the sniper and moving it up, or why you moved your heavy in that direction too. Why were you moving towards his spawn side in your first few turns instead of his wit side? At any rate, this left you out of position to deal with his bombshell.

As for the SvF matchup, I can't really comment on it because it's fairly rare these days for there not to be an Adorables player in a game with two highly ranked players. However, OML stated that the balance in the matchups is fairly close (excluding Veggienauts) so if there is imbalance, it's not too great at the moment.

[Mag!cGuy]

What is annoying is when people put a 4lp bombshell in a place you can't reach but can shot all your minions. 4 lp, seriously.

http://osn.codepenguin.com/replays/view/...20Yk6zXAgw

What could I do after he placed his BS? Nothing. My mobi would, ok, reach one soldier, and then? Even if I managed to destroy one soldier and then take my mobi, teleport my sniper and shot, (which costs a lot of wits, wits I have rather to use to move my units so that they ain't shot) the Bs would have 1LP remaining. Healthing him isn't difficult for my opponent, and then next turn my efforts would have been totally useless. I have many other replays showing this problem. I prefer 100 times playing against ST's, even if it's harder, cuz here it's interesting: they move, rush, make tricks. They don't hide themselves behind Bs placed 4 hex next to your base where all your units are condemned.

Top master is the place I can't pass through, because I can't, like did ST when they were master, deal with this BS abuse. Whenever I try to reach one of them, there is a sniper behind, or even another bombshell, which destroy all what I have in 3 shots. As if it wasn't enough, you can't reach it by surprise: the BS knows where are the units in the first line of hex of fog of far, so, it shots, then take one soldier in front of him, and here we go: a lot of wits wasted cuz you thought you could destroy this fortress, but have to come back.

Oh and, yeah, sometimes I rush too quick. Why? Cuz if I don't, the opponents manages to place a bomshell which directly threaten my base, and I can't even reach it, by lack of units or wits. Turtling? I hate that, this has no interest. So what is the solution? ^^

[CombatEX]

Sorry, I have a bad habit of posting and then typing a bunch more in an edit. Could you read my post again? I wrote more in the time you were responding.

EDIT (lol yes, I'm doing it again):

Since you mention the Reaper replay in particular, I think you're missing a critical point. I already commented on this above, but your first few turns you spent setting up a rush and then calling it off. You can't do that kind of opening and expect not to be punished for it. Getting out a bunch of runners and moving your mobi all over the place SHOULD be punishable. The Scallywag player capitalized on this and set up a Bombshell in the center. You had no way to deal with it because you'd been getting out runners until then and as a result didn't have the proper unit composition.

You spawned:
1 x Mobi
1 x Medic
3 x Runner
1 x Soldier

He spawned:
1 x Bombshell
1 x Medic
1 x Runner
3 x Soldier

Your mobi and 3 runners should lose to a bombshell and 3 soldiers.

If you don't like turtling I'd try Feedback. Both Scallywags and Adorables have matchups where turtling is optimal. I can't really speak for the Veggienauts as the buff was just released recently but we'll see.

EDIT2:

(02-03-2013 04:08 AM)W1cked21 Wrote:  I prefer 100 times playing against ST's, even if it's harder, cuz here it's interesting: they move, rush, make tricks. They don't hide themselves behind Bs placed 4 hex next to your base where all your units are condemned.

They don't do it because it's bad now. Back before the update and even a while after before Adorables caught on, Scallywags players at the ST level did bombshell behind 4 hp soldiers all the time! It's only now that it's relatively weak against Adorables that ST players have stopped doing it so frequently.