Game balancing

[Harti]

Harti, on the beta forums, Wrote:Again, this is merely some kind of gut feeling but as the time is short there is NO way to figure it out:

3HP Thorns are broken. The cost for you is 1. To essentially spawn it anywhere on the field. The parent-child mechanic becomes pretty much obsolete with the parent being nearly invincible. A bramble player without some fatal brain damage will always spawn Thorns in a way the opponent cannot destroy the parent. This is perfectly possible from - at last - the 3rd turn you own the Bramble.
This way, the opponent has to destroy two 3 HP Thorn nodes to get rid of a threat. There are few options: First option is to build Heavies all the way. Quite expensive and not affordable if you want to attack sometime. Second option: Build Soldiers all the way. More affordable but less efficient, you'll invest 4 wits into attacking these two nodes alone. Third option: Block Thorns' way with units. Works like a charm but Veggienauts players aren't dumb and a situation where this is possible in is unlikely to occur hence.




These Thorn Patches are a Soldier in terms of defense. Even if they refunded a wit I think it's way too hard to counter them. They are gonna steal and re-steal the wit spaces all the time, block units' ways to get to the space (or your units) and you'll have an auto-win. Just imagine you block that wit space on Sweetie Plains with a 3HP Thorn. Okay, maybe they've still got their Sniper. They might be able to shoot the Thorn. But what if they don't. (Usually you bring units along your Bramble Thorns so you can pick the Sniper off the turn after). The opponent will maybe need to build a Runner, send it over to attack the node, send the Soldier to attack it, too. That's 5 wits. For 1 opponent wit (which gets refunded by the fact that the opponent receives 1 less wit). You destroyed ONE Thorn, and didn't even move a unit onto the wit space. Guess what happens next turn. This is unwinnable.

I can imagine games or maps where the Bramble doesn't shine. However, I find that a tad too extreme. Don't get me wrong, I love to play Veggienauts now. I bet there's a way to counter them somehow, and I think the Adorables are going to have a particularly good time doing that.
But a unit spawning meatshields at 1 - technically anywhere - to protect allied units is really, really strong.


Random ideas (sorted by HP, not by preference):
- Patches 4HP, no Thorn cascading
- Patches 4HP, spawn radius to 1
- Patches 3HP, no Thorn cascading
- Patches 2HP, heal 1HP each turn
- Patches 2HP, no parent-child
- Patches 2HP, recedable
- Patches 2HP, can attack (1 dmg) instead of spawn a child
- Patches 2HP, spawn radius to 3
- Patches 1HP, deal 1 damage to melee units attacking them
- Patches 1HP, free of charge, no Thorn cascading

[blckace]

I like your argument Harti, you're right on all accounts

In the beta games, what happens when p2 spawns a bramble on the first turn on SFI? It's just too powerful. Specially that killing a thorn doesn't give one wit back it's a nightmare!

[game_taker]

(01-13-2013 01:31 PM)SerPurpleWolf Wrote:  3 Hp sounds crazy overpowered to me. (Which can be a good thing I guess) I'd rather have 1 or 2 Hp with no children/parent rules. Then the real fun would begin.

Your suggestion wouldn't solve bramble vs scallywag.

[ImperialSun]

(01-13-2013 07:07 AM)connor34911 Wrote:  

(01-13-2013 04:08 AM)game_taker Wrote:  

(01-13-2013 03:06 AM)connor34911 Wrote:  

(01-13-2013 01:20 AM)ImperialSun Wrote:  3 hp seems more balanced (I've seen some of the games).

I would like to try the regenerating idea though with thorns going back to 2 hp at the beginning of each veggie player's turn.

As for adorables, xixon, sniper moves aren't a problem at all. You can predict and attempt to defend appropriately against mobi sniper attacks. Hit and run on the other hand is a huge balance concern. Even if you know it's a possibility, unlike mobi sniper attacks, you often cannot prevent hit and run without giving up massive ground (and even then only delaying it for a turn). Hit and run is wit neutral if done correctly and gives the adorables player a unit advantage. In other words, that aspect of the adorables is broken while mobi sniper attacks are not.

I'm honestly getting sick of this discussion. Maybe at the very upper levels of play it has some balance issues. But sorry it's preventing scally from turtle the hell out of everyone? Scally turtles with a wall of bombshells are probably the most annoying this in the game. Particularly on maps like peekaboo.

Additionally, spawning a mobi would technically put you behind in the unit count anyways.

Peekaboo is shit map to play against scallywags.
If your on a big map, and your opponent spawns a bs, just attack from somewhere else.
The smaller maps require more strategy

I understand that, and I am fine with that. What I don't get, is why when I say scally is OP on X Y and Z map, the response is "the smaller maps require more strategy", but then everyone complains about mobi users USING STRATEGY to beat scallys. Then the response is "well mobi is OP so it needs to be nerfed". Its a joke. Scally users may have to learn strategy against mobi players. Maybe some of you are only ranked so high because you turtle, which doesn't require much "strategy".

That's funny. Firstly, gametaker and I are both FEEDBACK users so trying to playoff our comments as defensive scallywag players is just wrong. Secondly, adorables get the biggest advantage from turtling now, not scallywags. That's not just my opinion, I believe it was terenceshiu or garcia who made that statement. Another high level player also stated that adorables are like zerg. If you let them sit back and macro (or in outwitters, turtle), they get a huge advantage. Scallywags were the big turtlers prepatch and it was a problem. Now though mobi turtles are worse.

As feedback players we can be more neutral in this discussion. Are you an adorables player? Sure sounds like it.

---

Also I meant to say, I don't quite agree with gametaker's blanket statement that small maps are more strategic. It's more dependent on the particular features of the maps than just the size.

[Harti]

swag is short for scallywags


just saying

[poweewee]

Sorry if I only got to read this thread now. I've been thinking about it, and I think this post from garcia10000 sums it up:

(01-14-2013 12:29 AM)garcia1000 Wrote:  The problem isn't with Adorables mainly, it is with the two new maps. The two "holes" on Thorn Gulley are just ridiculously safe for the Adorables player to abuse. Reaper everyone knows about already

It's not just the holes on Thorn Gulley, it's also because the map is so large, that it favors the Mobi so much. Reaper, on the other hand, is not a very large map, but it favors the Mobi because of the predeployed Sniper and Heavy.

I've been using the Adorables even since before the update, and I don't think there was any problem with it back then (It was more of the BS everyone was complaining about). People are now saying that it is OP and such; I think it is more with the two new maps rather than the +1 wit for kill rule (On a side note, I think this rule actually made turtling harder, in effect "nerfing" the BS).

So for me, if any changes were to be made, I suppose it should be with the two maps (remove the sniper on reaper? Change the heavy to a soldier?), and of course with the Veggies (I hear thorns will get 3HP. Hmm, might work).

[XixonDale]

So, maps with holes in them like Thorn Gully will never be an option anymore for the map creators....

[Gavin Wins]

Alvendor makes some good points, but I think the nerfs he is proposing go too far. That said, Veggies definitely need a buff.

I don't think Alvendor's his justification for not allowing placed vines to root/uproot for free (no wit cost) is a good one. Let the penalty for poor planning be the waste of the wit you spent constructing the vine (that you now need to uproot) in the first place.

I think there are a few ways to buff the bramble without increasing vine hp to 3. For starters, vines could be given a new property where they are usable on enemy units and "entangle" that unit. When a unit is entangled, it cannot move or attack until the entanglement is broken and removed. The entanglement can be broken by either killing the mother vine or attacking the entangled unit (attacking an entangled unit only breaks the entanglement, it does not damage the unit that was entangled).

Otherwise, allowing the bramble to move around without destroying all of its previously placed vines might work.

[lawtai]

I wonder if this would work at all. What if the veggienaut units could move onto their own vines? So that there was no movement restriction. Also, if you're attacking a unit that's sitting on a vine, it has a 2HP shield that must be destroyed first. You would only be allowed to move through your own vines though.

[.Memories.]

(01-15-2013 05:01 AM)lawtai Wrote:  I wonder if this would work at all. What if the veggienaut units could move onto their own vines? So that there was no movement restriction. Also, if you're attacking a unit that's sitting on a vine, it has a 2HP shield that must be destroyed first. You would only be allowed to move through your own vines though.

A boosted Heavy in vines = 7HP

Interesting idea, though!