Game balancing

[connor34911]

Also, if the enemy makes 2 mobis, why can't you have 2 bombshells? I've played tons of game on peekaboo and SFI where I find myself against against 2 bombshells. If I have to use two mobis and a ton of wits just to take out ONE shell then I don't see how that's unfair.

[laYahooz]

(01-06-2013 04:43 AM)connor34911 Wrote:  Also, if the enemy makes 2 mobis, why can't you have 2 bombshells? I've played tons of game on peekaboo and SFI where I find myself against against 2 bombshells. If I have to use two mobis and a ton of wits just to take out ONE shell then I don't see how that's unfair.

Well then yor rushing taking out the BS What top mobi players do is patiently destroy the scallwag wall and go for the BS after the wall is destroyed.

Mobis definately are the best unit in outwitters right now. It used to be the the scallywags who could “automatically win" if the game went on for countless turns. Now the adorables can slowly win their victory. The hit and run tactic just slowly dominates my defenses as the game proceeds. Playing as scallies, a 2 mobis can easily beat 5 bombshells or more! 3 mobis and it's GG.
I agree with Alvender with taking out the hit and run AND reducing the snails health to 3. Mobis would still be able to take out the BS pretty easily but the scallies could probably counter next turn. The mobi and snail nerfs would also help feedback withstand long games. I think the feedback is still a great team for top players, but they get dominated if the game goes on to long.
And the Bramble? Not quite sure since I hadn played much with it. I did mention in another thread the idea of not being able to target branches from range so adorables and scallies couldn't easily take out paren vines.

[connor34911]

Fair enough, I still think that you have to consider you're talking about HIGH LEVEL play which is by definition the top 1 percent. Even if it is that top 10 percent you may still be making mobi less viable for lower levels of play which encompass the majority of outwitters players.

[Gf!sh]

I think the solution then is to play better

[Harti]

(01-06-2013 01:40 AM)Alvendor Wrote:  Even if the data says feedback is as good as the other races, I'd put a fair share on money that that is false.

Agreed to a certain extent. Each team has got weaknesses and strengths for each map. The Feedback is particularly strong on Glitch in my opinion. Well, on any single-spawn map with its spawn close to the base, the Feedback is surely a viable choice.

I've had some games against p1noyboypj, him using Feedback. The pressure coming from that well-shielded Scrambler was intriguing. I had to return all my units to where they came from and I had to tweak the positioning each and every turn actually.

So the problem doesn't lie within our subjective understanding of how the teams work. We probably never found the Feedback too strong, thusly didn't use them and therefore don't know how to use them and finally mistake them as a weak team.
It may well be that the win percentage of the Feedback is low. But that's quite likely because only few people know how to use them appropriately. And more importantly, OML's data is most likely to also contain games without any spawned specials (which doesn't really show which team is better except in a mindgame way).

In order to really address balance issues among teams, we would need to find four top specialists for each race, and let them play 1,200 games against each other (100 per match-up, 50 P1, 50 P2). For each map (9,600 games).
THEN we would maybe have some bullet-proof breakdown about how the teams are balanced for every map. :O



We need to accept that it's nearly impossible to really find a perfect balance between the teams, and with a fifth team approaching sometime we're going to have to live through the whole process again.
Hence, we should try to live with what OML's figures say and trust in their ideas for fixes. Things that seem to be obviously out of balance are immediately brought up and fixed within the beta testing group.
Please do note that, if any Special changes, so does the complete spectrum of balance between all Specials. A good Veggienauts buff might make the Veggienauts "a respectable team" (i.e. get more people to try to figure out how to use them; they are a decent team already), making people switch from Adorables to Veggienauts for whatever reason (e.g. better match-up against Scallywags) and therefore influencing all percentages.


Long story short: Let's try different things and find out. Your suggestions might balance the game but from what I see, it'd shift the balance in Feedback's and Veggienauts' favor.

[blckace]

I really like Alvendor's suggestions and I hope they get some serious consideration

A three hp bombshell is much easier to kill than a four hp one
As for the mobi nerf, it's probably the only possible nerf for mobi?

If you say it would shift the balance in favor of Vegginauts and Feedback, I have to disagree. It would probably be shifting the balance toward neutrality.

[terenceshiu2005]

(01-06-2013 04:43 AM)connor34911 Wrote:  Also, if the enemy makes 2 mobis, why can't you have 2 bombshells? I've played tons of game on peekaboo and SFI where I find myself against against 2 bombshells. If I have to use two mobis and a ton of wits just to take out ONE shell then I don't see how that's unfair.

I would like to share my view as well. For example, if someone is playing scallywags vs my adorables on SFI. If I know he/she has two bombshells, I will be very happy because I can have 2 mobis at the same time. In the case we leave the topest hex empty, I can move a mobi and teleport my sniper to hit his/her base at the back door and tele back the mobi in a turn, then do the same to finish the game in next turn. Just want to share that mobi is strong on SFI even before update.

(01-04-2013 03:33 PM)poweewee Wrote:  On large maps, the Adorables are definitely the strongest race. But on ones like SFI, I'm not so sure. I was actually pretty lucky with that SFI win

Also, the top mobi player has agreed that mobi is quite strong on large map, may be he can have some input if he doesn't mind

[ImperialSun]

Would anyone honestly play Scallywags against Adorables if bombshells had 3 health? Good luck with that.

[Necrocat219]

I think I'm the only person who actually thinks that the original three races are pretty much balanced! If anything I would only say that adorables are an underpowered race, there has never been a fuss on them being OP until the reaper map came along, then it seems that some top level players discussing reaper has made it seem that way. I transferred from Adorables to Feedback when I was in Masters because I was struggling to compete with opposing bombshells. Mobi seems fine as it is.

With bombshells I've personally never had a problem with them balance wise but everyone else seems to agree that they are imbalanced so I'm not sure.

Scramblers I would be biased about. I've always loved feedback vs scallywag matchups on Glitch, thinking I have the highest win % on there and then Garcia came out and says he think theres a 9/10 chance for scally's to win the matchup so I have no idea XD

Brambles are good when coming to controlling wit spaces, at my level I when I do spawn a bramble I do find it useful and it does generate an advantage for me. However there are far fewer times that I would prefer to spawn it over any of the other 3 specials.

[laYahooz]

(01-06-2013 09:45 AM)ImperialSun Wrote:  Would anyone honestly play Scallywags against Adorables if bombshells had 3 health? Good luck with that.

If mobi was nerfed like Alvender suggested, I would