Proof the Bombshell should be nerfed?? Check out this game I just had...

[Ricky_KK]

(12-07-2012 04:54 AM)TheGreatAnt Wrote:  I don't really think it is fair to say "the developers intentions." Sure BS is usually used for defence use, but the way the game is set up, BS can be used on offence too, if used correctly. The same is with the other specials. A scrambler can wait back and scramble units that come close and heal them for your use. Mobi can hang back and move around units for effective wall. Bramble can be used to push forward and control spawn and wit spaces. The special units (or any of the units) are not limited to just one responsability (defending or attacking), they were put in the game for the player to decide how they want to use the units. The same thing is in chess. Different chess players like to use certain pieces in their strategy.

IN CONCLUSION:
Let the player play how they want to. If they are able to effectively control the game with a bomb shell, then let it happen. Unless they have hacked the game and using unlimited wits, there shouldn't be any problem with one's tactics.

Point taken. IMO, I feel like the range on the BS is too far. Maybe bring it back 1 wit. I had my back to the wall from his second move. At what point do you sit there and say, "ok, maybe this character has too much of an advantage"? I felt this when on the second move, I was fighting just to keep spawning characters.

[Harti]

Stop discussing about how the game might have played out if this or that had been done differently. The point is that the Bombshell is too strong and I share this opinion to the fullest. A good mixture of vulnerable indirect units and durable direct units shielding them was the key to victory in Advance Wars (which I used to play competitively). This was because indirect units dealt the most damage in the game and the enemy couldn't completely get through under normal circumstances - because the directs were blocking his way.

It is the exact same story for Outwitters where the indirect units are the strongest, too, and they are being shielded by durable direct units, namely 3-4 HP Soldiers. In Advance Wars, the strongest indirect (ground) unit with the furthest range, the Rocket Launcher, was rarely used though. How so? It was going on wheels instead of treads like the Artillery did. What does that mean? Because of the terrain it was next to impossible to move Rockets to the frontlines quickly as many maps lacked roads. Therefore people were using the Artilleries which were nearly as strong as Rockets but were able to go much further.
I wouldn't call Advance Wars balanced in terms of unit distribution, it's mostly Artilleries shielded by Infantries, and a couple of Tanks. However, it is impossible in Outwitters to bring your indirect units to the frontlines, it's just too much of a hassle - unless you're using the Adorables or the Scallywags.

While the Feedback and also the Veggienauts still have their own strengths, their biggest weakness is the fact that they're mostly trading direct units and will have to fall back into more defensive positions once the opponent has got indirects set up. Meaning that the opponent will have more space to distribute their units. Meaning that the opponent gets more zone control. Meaning that he/she can move his/her indirects closer to your base. Repeat.

I've been starting a couple of games on the Super-Titan League the last few days. Whenever I was facing someone playing the Scallywags, my brain went like "holy sh**, if I don't rush my opponent to prevent him/her from setting up a Bombshell, I'm gonna lose" (because that's true on the long term). It was like I had foreseen the outcomes of the games. They managed to survive the rush and pushed a Bombshell out that I couldn't destroy, and then good game.

Today I caught myself insulting my opponent after playing against him/her three times: "skillful game..... ... Bombshell."
I think that most Super-Titans are aware of the fact that the Bombshell's overpowered. They do not know the theory behind (cp. Advance Wars) but they need not know.

I feel discouraged to use the Veggienauts (which I used in the last couple of League games) because I don't have *any* out against a Scallywags or Adorables player. How am I supposed to destroy the enemy formation if they can keep shooting me (at profit) from distance? How am I supposed to defend that if I can't get indirect units to the frontlines?
Actually, among my ranks I almost only see Scallywags, sometimes they throw Adorables in but that's maybe just to counter Scallywags once again.

Nerfing the Bombshell... I am not so sure what's a good way to do this, but limiting its movement range to 2 would be the fairest way to go, I guess.

[worldfamous]

You also could've taken out the shell on turn 8. Heavy kills soldier, soldier hits shell, spawn runner to finish shell, move medic to spawn to prevent shark from spawn sitting.

[The RawkHawk]

(12-07-2012 04:51 AM)worldfamous Wrote:  I'll have to look again. It sounds like you're probably right on the sniper point but my overall point still stands that I don't see this replay as an example of the need to nerf the shell. Often it's that one early mistake that sets off a sequence of unavoidable setbacks in a game like that. I'll give it a more careful look and try to provide a better analysis.

I definitely agree with World's point on an early mistake setting off a sequence of unavoidable situations. That said - your opponent is surprisingly defensive at times when he does not need to be. He opted to build a 2nd and 3rd shell instead of trying to mount a killing blow.
I see these as opportunities to recover from previous mistakes - which is good for you. But it is all the more important to keep your runners up so you can take full advantage of whatever may happen on the board.

Again - you played this game, not me - and I'm not trying to say that I would have done any better in your situation. But I think my comments highlight some good strategies for taking on those pesky turtles and their supershells.

[worldfamous]

All of of what Harti said is why I prefer 2v2. There's such a nice mix of units and strategies, that it make the game more interesting. This is also why I HATE Blitz beach. There is only one strategy. Get your bombshell in the OP position and hold until you chip away that last piece of the base.

[The RawkHawk]

(12-07-2012 05:14 AM)worldfamous Wrote:  All of of what Harti said is why I prefer 2v2. There's such a nice mix of units and strategies, that it make the game more interesting. This is also why I HATE Blitz beach. There is only one strategy. Get your bombshell in the OP position and hold until you chip away that last piece of the base.

World - I don't have any *idea* what you're talking about.

[Ricky_KK]

(12-07-2012 04:59 AM)worldfamous Wrote:  I take that back. I believe you could've jumped your soldier to the right of the the runner and killed the runner, then spawned the sniper, move and kill shell, then move your medic up, sealing off the sniper. If you still have a wit left, move your soldier on the wit to the center. Something like that anyway. What you were worried about could not have taken place...I think.

Keep in mind that I did not know that the shell had moved. I was trying to keep some soldiers to the left so that he didn't work around me. I guess my real concern here is: did he had a unfair advantage against me with that quick of a move. If none of the other characters on the various teams could create an advantage like that, why should the BS be able to? or is this not the case?

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(12-07-2012 05:12 AM)The RawkHawk Wrote:  

(12-07-2012 04:51 AM)worldfamous Wrote:  I'll have to look again. It sounds like you're probably right on the sniper point but my overall point still stands that I don't see this replay as an example of the need to nerf the shell. Often it's that one early mistake that sets off a sequence of unavoidable setbacks in a game like that. I'll give it a more careful look and try to provide a better analysis.

I definitely agree with World's point on an early mistake setting off a sequence of unavoidable situations. That said - your opponent is surprisingly defensive at times when he does not need to be. He opted to build a 2nd and 3rd shell instead of trying to mount a killing blow.
I see these as opportunities to recover from previous mistakes - which is good for you. But it is all the more important to keep your runners up so you can take full advantage of whatever may happen on the board.

Again - you played this game, not me - and I'm not trying to say that I would have done any better in your situation. But I think my comments highlight some good strategies for taking on those pesky turtles and their supershells.

Thanks for the advice, I don't put enough emphasis on runner/awareness. To your point on my opponent being defensive. I think he wasn't worried either way, and may have just been toying with me at the point. Had I taken the opportunity to rebuild, he would've build 4 of those bombshells. By the time I would be satisfied with being built up, it would be impossible to fight off all his bombshells. He had 3 bombshells at one point and I wasn't necessarily trying to rebuild and turtle

[worldfamous]

(12-07-2012 05:16 AM)The RawkHawk Wrote:  

(12-07-2012 05:14 AM)worldfamous Wrote:  All of of what Harti said is why I prefer 2v2. There's such a nice mix of units and strategies, that it make the game more interesting. This is also why I HATE Blitz beach. There is only one strategy. Get your bombshell in the OP position and hold until you chip away that last piece of the base.

World - I don't have any *idea* what you're talking about.

Yes, I'm still bitter.

[The RawkHawk]

(12-07-2012 05:06 AM)Harti Wrote:  Nerfing the Bombshell... I am not so sure what's a good way to do this, but limiting its movement range to 2 would be the fairest way to go, I guess.

Harti, you have some interesting history with this issue it would seem

I have had my fair share of shell complaints - but the only reason I fall short of calling for a nerf is that I know that reducing the shell's range (which seems to be the general consensus on what should change) would make it too weak - especially compared to the adorable's Moo.

If I was going to go with a nerf for shell... I agree that the only balanced option would be to reduce the shell's movement or prevent the shell from moving after it is set in place.
(except for being moved by Mobi in 2v2 of course )

[Ricky_KK]

(12-07-2012 05:08 AM)worldfamous Wrote:  You also could've taken out the shell on turn 8. Heavy kills soldier, soldier hits shell, spawn runner to finish shell, move medic to spawn to prevent shark from spawn sitting.

Lol look, I'm not saying there wasn't a way to kill the bombshell.. I'm saying there wasn't a way to kill the bombshell AND survive.

Had I done what you just described, the heavy down low would've stepped on my spawn wit and I would have only had a heavy, solider, and 1 runner to defend my base and kill his heavy. Don't think that would've turned out well for me.