Proof the Bombshell should be nerfed?? Check out this game I just had...

Ricky_KK · (This post was last modified: 12-07-2012 02:17 AM by Ricky_KK.)

Here is a league game that I just had and was by far the most difficult game I've ever played. There was absolutely no getting around the bombshell and when I tried to shift the game in my direction with a risky move, it wouldn't take much effort from the opponent to make me fail at it. Every time I tried he would just build another one. It looked as though this guy used this technique often. I don't think the way the guy used his bs were what the game developers meant. The game eventually timed out bc I've been too busy with finals. Let me know what you guys think.

outwitters://viewgame?id=ag5vdXR3aXR0ZXJzZ2FtZXIRCxIIR2FtZVJvb20Y-pbyAQw

The RawkHawk · 12-07-2012, 03:11 AM

Rough game there - although from this game I wouldn't go so far to say that shell should be nerfed.
This is a really tough level to play against the scallys; the small corridor combined with plenty of cover provides excellent vantages for shells.
In this particular game - I would say your trouble was a combination of your limited map awareness, and being a tad too eager to rush a defended shell.
Position a strategic runner or two so that you can make more intelligent decisions based on the location of their units.
When attacking a shell, make sure you set up a smart attack instead of attempting to charge directly at it. Sometimes a rush can pay off if your opponent has overextended themselves without the wits - but often times you'll just end up feeding the shell. My favorite way to kill shells is a sniper, runner combo - but then again I play the Adorables.

Gotta love me some Moo.

Anyway - let me know what you think about these suggestions, I'm no expert by any means. Good luck with those future turtles.

worldfamous · 12-07-2012, 04:15 AM

I tried really hard to just bite my tongue, but I can't. Sorry, but the only proof here is, you need more practice. I almost shut it off when you scrambled the shark, only to have both killed on the next turn. But I stuck it out a little longer. I finally backed out when you spawned the sniper and chose to snipe the soldier instead of the bombshell. I agree that the bombshell is incredibly annoying and I am not very good at dealing with it either. That replay was just not a good representation of a need to nerf it.

Ricky_KK · 12-07-2012, 04:28 AM

(12-07-2012 04:15 AM)worldfamous Wrote: I tried really hard to just bite my tongue, but I can't. Sorry, but the only proof here is, you need more practice. I almost shut it off when you scrambled the shark, only to have both killed on the next turn. But I stuck it out a little longer. I finally backed out when you spawned the sniper and chose to snipe the soldier instead of the bombshell. I agree that the bombshell is incredibly annoying and I am not very good at dealing with it either. That replay was just not a good representation of a need to nerf it.

I HAD to scrambled the shark. The shark would've survived anything else and stepped on my spawn wit. Same thing with the sniper spawn. He would have hit my sniper with 1 soldier and stepped on my spawn wit with the second soldier. Trust me, those may look like noob moves at a glance but I was trying to prevent a shut out. They were desperate moved to stay alive. I've always thought of bs as defense only, and have always thought that's what the creators meant for it, but from the get-go I was on the defensive trying to keep my spawn wit from bring stepped on. I don't think this is what was intended by the bs.

The RawkHawk · 12-07-2012, 04:44 AM

The shell can be used for more the defense, and a good scally player will do so.
Even so - shell has some weaknesses that can be exploited. The easiest way to protect yourself is having good map awareness so you can see when the shell moves.

I only viewed the reply once - so I'm sure I missed some of the inter-workings, but it did seem to me that there were several moments where critical opportunities were missed. WorldFamous mentioned the one that stood out to me the most.

worldfamous · 12-07-2012, 04:51 AM

(12-07-2012 04:28 AM)Ricky_KK Wrote:
(12-07-2012 04:15 AM)worldfamous Wrote: I tried really hard to just bite my tongue, but I can't. Sorry, but the only proof here is, you need more practice. I almost shut it off when you scrambled the shark, only to have both killed on the next turn. But I stuck it out a little longer. I finally backed out when you spawned the sniper and chose to snipe the soldier instead of the bombshell. I agree that the bombshell is incredibly annoying and I am not very good at dealing with it either. That replay was just not a good representation of a need to nerf it.

I HAD to scrambled the shark. The shark would've survived anything else and stepped on my spawn wit. Same thing with the sniper spawn. He would have hit my sniper with 1 soldier and stepped on my spawn wit with the second soldier. Trust me, those may look like noob moves at a glance but I was trying to prevent a shut out. They were desperate moved to stay alive. I've always thought of bs as defense only, and have always thought that's what the creators meant for it, but from the get-go I was on the defensive trying to keep my spawn wit from bring stepped on. I don't think this is what was intended by the bs.

I'll have to look again. It sounds like you're probably right on the sniper point but my overall point still stands that I don't see this replay as an example of the need to nerf the shell. Often it's that one early mistake that sets off a sequence of unavoidable setbacks in a game like that. I'll give it a more careful look and try to provide a better analysis.

Da Wizerd · (This post was last modified: 12-07-2012 04:55 AM by Da Wizerd.)

(12-07-2012 04:28 AM)Ricky_KK Wrote: I HAD to scrambled the shark. The shark would've survived anything else and stepped on my spawn wit.

It never even had to get to that point, if someone sticks a bombshell out in the open like that on the second turn, that thing should be dead within a couple moves.

1- on small maps against scallies, you MUST get map vision quickly, you had next to none

2- with a shell that far forward, pump out buffed soldiers and spread out around it, use your unit and wit advantage. you didn't even make a unit on the turn you discovered the shell

TheGreatAnt · 12-07-2012, 04:54 AM

I don't really think it is fair to say "the developers intentions." Sure BS is usually used for defence use, but the way the game is set up, BS can be used on offence too, if used correctly. The same is with the other specials. A scrambler can wait back and scramble units that come close and heal them for your use. Mobi can hang back and move around units for effective wall. Bramble can be used to push forward and control spawn and wit spaces. The special units (or any of the units) are not limited to just one responsability (defending or attacking), they were put in the game for the player to decide how they want to use the units. The same thing is in chess. Different chess players like to use certain pieces in their strategy.

IN CONCLUSION:
Let the player play how they want to. If they are able to effectively control the game with a bomb shell, then let it happen. Unless they have hacked the game and using unlimited wits, there shouldn't be any problem with one's tactics.

Ricky_KK · (This post was last modified: 12-07-2012 05:00 AM by Ricky_KK.)

(12-07-2012 04:44 AM)The RawkHawk Wrote: The shell can be used for more the defense, and a good scally player will do so.
Even so - shell has some weaknesses that can be exploited. The easiest way to protect yourself is having good map awareness so you can see when the shell moves.

I only viewed the reply once - so I'm sure I missed some of the inter-workings, but it did seem to me that there were several moments where critical opportunities were missed. WorldFamous mentioned the one that stood out to me the most.

I agree, there may have been a time when I could've changed things around (using some other strategy), however I think you two should go back and review those two opportunities. Especially the sniper one. I could've sniped his bombshell, but I would've lost the game because I wouldn't have been able to spawn any more units. I've attached a screen shot of that move.

Understand the context.. I couldn't obtain map awareness because his 2nd move of the game with the BS made it impossible to keep anything around. I had a decision to make.. Spawn a runner for awareness and waste my precious 1 spawn per move or do my best to build/turtle. I think achieving awareness with a runner would've set me back and I would've lost even sooner. Honestly, I think the range is too far on the BS. That was the one issue I had with an attacking BS. I couldn't keep a runner around with how close he was to me and with his range.

worldfamous · 12-07-2012, 04:59 AM

I take that back. I believe you could've jumped your soldier to the right of the the runner and killed the runner, then spawned the sniper, move and kill shell, then move your medic up, sealing off the sniper. If you still have a wit left, move your soldier on the wit to the center. Something like that anyway. What you were worried about could not have taken place...I think.