FTA Bonus on Highlevel Games means nearly Autowin

awpertunity · 08-18-2012, 09:12 AM

(08-18-2012 01:13 AM)P1noyboypj Wrote: In regards to ties giving lower rated person points: From playing various other games competetively, it further discourages players from playing very low rates players. Risk doesn't justify reward. Keep in mind this is if two games are played

In regards to FTA in general, I'm just suggesting there's another option to FTA. Just make maps balances or make rated games in pairs. Sometimes lowering FTA would make p2 the new white in some cases.

And no I'm not contradicting myself. I'm just throwing multiple options out there...

Yes that's true if leagued players could just challenge whomever they wished. But that is not the case here, you get matched up against someone similar in ratings to you. So a 1-1 tie would ultimately be -2 points or something, maybe -4 at best, for the higher rated played (i.e., -13 for the loss and +11 for the win).

I actually do like this idea, but as it was mentioned it may ward off casual players. Perhaps it should be implemented only for ST vs ST games, I don't know.

That last Chess quote makes me think about the game of Go for those familiar with it. White clearly has the advantage in Go, but it was not as large in the past. This is similar to Outwitters, FTA was not as large when we all first started playing. But as we all play more and get better, we can better take advantage of the FTA to the point it already is now.

To deal with this, black starts with a set amount of points called a "komi". When Go first started, this was set to 2.5 points. It has since increased to 3.5, 4.5, 5.5, 6.5, and apparently now it is even 7.5 which I didn't know about until I just read it.

As the last poster said, the problem arises from the fact that there really are no draws in Outwitters (has anyone experienced one?). This means that if two completely even skilled players are pitted against each other, and one HAS to be deemed a winner, it's going to be P1. And this is exactly the problem, as the community gets better and better, we will inevitably reach this point with no adjustments to FTA.

Alvendor · 08-18-2012, 08:00 PM

Hey P1noyboypj, completely off topic but: have you though of posting one of your replays you find interesting and describe your thought process turn by turn similar to how some other posters have done?

As you are the top ranked player I think a lot of people on the forum would appreciate something like that.

garcia1000 · (This post was last modified: 08-20-2012 06:50 PM by garcia1000.)

Well in any case it doesn't matter how big the FTA is.

It's because of the EXPLOIT that lets you start as P1 very often.

If it was fixed, then it doesn't matter if P1 wins 100% of the time. Since you have equal chance of being P1 or P2, then it's fair.

awpertunity · 08-20-2012, 09:17 PM

(08-20-2012 06:16 PM)garcia1000 Wrote: Well in any case it doesn't matter how big the FTA is.

It's because of the EXPLOIT that lets you start as P1 very often.

If it was fixed, then it doesn't matter if P1 wins 100% of the time. Since you have equal chance of being P1 or P2, then it's fair.

Are you kidding me? Why don't you just run along and flip a coin against your friends then. Sounds like great fun.

ArtNJ · 08-21-2012, 12:01 AM

(08-20-2012 09:17 PM)awpertunity Wrote:
(08-20-2012 06:16 PM)garcia1000 Wrote: Well in any case it doesn't matter how big the FTA is.

It's because of the EXPLOIT that lets you start as P1 very often.

If it was fixed, then it doesn't matter if P1 wins 100% of the time. Since you have equal chance of being P1 or P2, then it's fair.

Are you kidding me? Why don't you just run along and flip a coin against your friends then. Sounds like great fun.

Wait, slow down, its a perfectly legit point unless the first turn advantage is indeed "autowin" or close which isnt established. If the first turn advantage is merely significant, then fixing the exploit would go a long way.

While I dont find the arguments against 3 wits for p1 first turn at all persuasive and think this is an obvious solution, closing the go first loophole is a good idea regardless.

swimj · 08-21-2012, 12:28 AM

(08-21-2012 12:01 AM)ArtNJ Wrote:
(08-20-2012 09:17 PM)awpertunity Wrote:
(08-20-2012 06:16 PM)garcia1000 Wrote: Well in any case it doesn't matter how big the FTA is.

It's because of the EXPLOIT that lets you start as P1 very often.

If it was fixed, then it doesn't matter if P1 wins 100% of the time. Since you have equal chance of being P1 or P2, then it's fair.

Are you kidding me? Why don't you just run along and flip a coin against your friends then. Sounds like great fun.

Wait, slow down, its a perfectly legit point unless the first turn advantage is indeed "autowin" or close which isnt established. If the first turn advantage is merely significant, then fixing the exploit would go a long way.

While I dont find the arguments against 3 wits for p1 first turn at all persuasive and think this is an obvious solution, closing the go first loophole is a good idea regardless.

Sounds like we're having two arguments. One over fun, another over fair. Fixing the p1 queuing makes it fair, but not necessarily fun if fta is making games uncompetitive. If there were a game where the rule is the first player wins, it would be a very boring game but would be fair if fta was evenly distributed. However, I do not think this is the case usually for outwitters.

jaesonwu · 08-21-2012, 05:44 AM

I agree with swimj. Was about to post the same thing.

garcia1000 · 08-23-2012, 05:57 PM

(08-20-2012 09:17 PM)awpertunity Wrote: Are you kidding me? Why don't you just run along and flip a coin against your friends then. Sounds like great fun.

wat? you don't want to flip a coin because there is no skill involved in flipping a coin. Flipping a coin is just a 50/50 chance whether you win or lose. But in this game, you can win more if your skill is greater than your enemy. So if you have no skill you will be 50/50, but if you have high skill then you will win more games. For 1P winning 100% of games, that's only applying to the situation where both players are equally highly skilled. If you want to win as 2P then increase your skill

awpertunity · 08-24-2012, 09:37 AM

(08-23-2012 05:57 PM)garcia1000 Wrote:
(08-20-2012 09:17 PM)awpertunity Wrote: Are you kidding me? Why don't you just run along and flip a coin against your friends then. Sounds like great fun.

wat? you don't want to flip a coin because there is no skill involved in flipping a coin. Flipping a coin is just a 50/50 chance whether you win or lose. But in this game, you can win more if your skill is greater than your enemy. So if you have no skill you will be 50/50, but if you have high skill then you will win more games. For 1P winning 100% of games, that's only applying to the situation where both players are equally highly skilled. If you want to win as 2P then increase your skill

lol what?

Go read your post again and then my response, you said nothing about skill. You said it doesn't matter if P1 wins 100% of games as long as P1 is chosen randomly. I argued that's the same as just flipping a coin; i.e., what's the point of playing then?

Lutherj · 08-24-2012, 01:57 PM

(08-24-2012 09:37 AM)awpertunity Wrote:
(08-23-2012 05:57 PM)garcia1000 Wrote:
(08-20-2012 09:17 PM)awpertunity Wrote: Are you kidding me? Why don't you just run along and flip a coin against your friends then. Sounds like great fun.

wat? you don't want to flip a coin because there is no skill involved in flipping a coin. Flipping a coin is just a 50/50 chance whether you win or lose. But in this game, you can win more if your skill is greater than your enemy. So if you have no skill you will be 50/50, but if you have high skill then you will win more games. For 1P winning 100% of games, that's only applying to the situation where both players are equally highly skilled. If you want to win as 2P then increase your skill

lol what?

Go read your post again and then my response, you said nothing about skill. You said it doesn't matter if P1 wins 100% of games as long as P1 is chosen randomly. I argued that's the same as just flipping a coin; i.e., what's the point of playing then?

The difference (and I'm not sure Garcia is necessarily saying this) is that the "50/50 fta" based play is only truly like flipping a coin if both players are at the complete maximum of skill and in fact can get no better in skill (basically every move is perfectly calculated like a computer).

It's firstly unlikely that any player is truly at that level for EVERY move (some may be close). But even if there were 2 players like that, there is still skill and enjoyment in ensuring that you play at that high level for the entire game, because one false move and you may ruin the p1 fta advantage. Even if the game plays out as expected, there is still skill involved in ensuring that it plays out that way....and some enjoyment in the tension and pressure of getting it right. This is not the same as flipping a coin.

But I agree it would be even more fun if there were no advantage and every game was up for grabs even if both players were perfect. Although again, I doubt any player is.