Giving Up Before You Get An Opponent

[game_taker]

(03-27-2014 01:11 PM)TheGreatAnt Wrote:  FTA totally depends on the opening of both players. What happens afterwards totally depends on the initial setup.

If it totally dependent on the openings of both players then it would be considered strategy as oppose to fta. The fta thats often referred to in foundry is P1 ability to create an opening such that on turn 2 p2 has no way to defend both his sniper and medic at the same time, both of whom are crucial for later game.

[ElPared]

I notice FTA the most on Peekaboo where I can't see anything my opponent did until it's too late and they're in a position to kill your stuff for free, especially against adorables where they can save their runner or whatever and get a unit advantage.

As far as quitting before I get an opponent, I admit I do this. When I get Thorn Gulley as Feedback I always give up if I'm player 1. That's such a frustratingly bad map for Feedback that I refuse to play on it as them if I don't have to. I also do it if I screw up my opening move somehow, like I forget to cap a wit space or something.

I actually rather like that this can be done, and I don't consider it cheating so much as poor sportsmanship. In Thorn Gulley's case, though, I couldn't give 2 sh*ts about sportsmanship.

[TheGreatAnt]

(03-27-2014 01:30 PM)game_taker Wrote:  

(03-27-2014 01:11 PM)TheGreatAnt Wrote:  FTA totally depends on the opening of both players. What happens afterwards totally depends on the initial setup.

If it totally dependent on the openings of both players then it would be considered strategy as oppose to fta. The fta thats often referred to in foundry is P1 ability to create an opening such that on turn 2 p2 has no way to defend both his sniper and medic at the same time, both of whom are crucial for later game.

FTA is a strategy. There are some P1s that choose to start defensively, and P2 start of aggressive. Then it isn't really FTA P1 advantage because P2 then set up in a better attacking position.

I'm not saying this as an absolute, but the openings of each player definitely depends on and reflects FTA.

[Mag!cGuy]

(03-27-2014 01:01 PM)[PETA] Doodat Wrote:  

(03-27-2014 12:39 PM)Bbobb555 Wrote:  

(03-27-2014 12:23 PM)awpertunity Wrote:  

(03-27-2014 09:01 AM)Bbobb555 Wrote:  There is no wit advantage... FTA only exists on Foundry and War Garden.

That's quite a bold statement with zero backup lol. I'd argue sweet tooth, skull duggery, and reaper also have FTA. Maybe even glitch and peekaboo.

Hmm... I've never heard anyone mention FTA on those maps but maybe you're right. Though the advantage is pretty small and probably only visible at high levels. Reaper only has FTA for adorables.

I don't know about this. Foundry has very little FTA if you open correctly. War Garden as well, I tend to do better with P2 there. I think FTA isn't that big of an issue anymore, and if I had to pick a map with FTA, it might be SFI.

I actually think SFI has STA. The most important on this map is the wit count, you can't gain any positionnal advantage by playing first.

[SuperDonkey]

(03-27-2014 09:01 AM)Bbobb555 Wrote:  There is no wit advantage... FTA only exists on Foundry and War Garden.

Now that we're getting more data in OSN, we might be able to make a better determination as to which boards have a nice first-player advantage. I suspect you'll find a lot on 4-wit-point boards since that's where the first player also has the wit advantage.

Don't know how you're analyzing the wit advantage, but since play is asynchronous, I think you have to look at the total wit you have had to spend up to that point compared to your opponent. So on 4-wit-point boards, the totals go: 5, 8, 12, 15, 19, etc. Thus as P1, you have the following surplus/deficit by turn: +5, -3, +4, -3, +4, -3, etc. That means on Turn 5, all things considered, I have 4 more wit to play with than my opponent, while on Turn 6 he has only 3 more wit than I do. This might be slight but I bet it shows up over the course of hundreds of games.

[TheGreatAnt]

(03-27-2014 08:06 PM)Mag!cGuy Wrote:  I actually think SFI has STA. The most important on this map is the wit count, you can't gain any positionnal advantage by playing first.

I would agree, though frankly it depends on the represented team.

[JerryG]

This doesn't seem like a very fair strategy if someone was abusing it. Also, it's less fun. The variety of maps is part of what makes this game cool.

Hopefully people who are abusing it will find that when they start a game and get P2 on a map they usually avoid, they're losing because they don't know the map as well.

[[PETA] Cor13:4]

(03-28-2014 02:30 AM)JerryG Wrote:  This doesn't seem like a very fair strategy if someone was abusing it. Also, it's less fun. The variety of maps is part of what makes this game cool.

Hopefully people who are abusing it will find that when they start a game and get P2 on a map they usually avoid, they're losing because they don't know the map as well.

Ironically, I find myself not knowing what to do when I'm P1, because the majority of the time I'm P2. I think (ignoring my initial placement games), 36/103 of my games I was P1.

The way the current system works, it's easy to stack the queue and be P1 more often if you play more games (and start the games in bursts). If you play games every now and then, then you'll be P2 most of the time, like I am.

To make it completely fair, they should:

1. Prevent you from cancelling a game as P1, or cause you to lose ranking.
2. When you start a game, even if there are no games waiting for opponents, it should stick you on a queue, but not decide if you are P1 or P2 until someone else is put on the queue.

I know they probably didn't do option 2 because they wanted people starting games to be able to at least play 1 turn, but it ends up making the system somewhat gameable to give yourself an advantage and be P1 the majority of the time if you want to.

[.Memories.]

I'll be the first to admit that I cancel P1 games from time-to-time, but not very often. Not because it's ever a map I dislike or think I'll do poorly on, but because it's a map that I've gotten numerous times in a row. I like the variety; I like being familiar with all maps. So, if I start 3 games and they are on Sweetie Planes, then start a 4th that is P1 SP, I might cancel it in hopes of getting something fresh.

I do see how the system can be manipulated, though, so I think there should be a change. They could roll in a fix to help a player not get the same map all in a row, too

[Flarp55]

(03-27-2014 04:05 PM)ElPared Wrote:  I notice FTA the most on Peekaboo where I can't see anything my opponent did until it's too late and they're in a position to kill your stuff for free, especially against adorables where they can save their runner or whatever and get a unit advantage.

As far as quitting before I get an opponent, I admit I do this. When I get Thorn Gulley as Feedback I always give up if I'm player 1. That's such a frustratingly bad map for Feedback that I refuse to play on it as them if I don't have to. I also do it if I screw up my opening move somehow, like I forget to cap a wit space or something.

I actually rather like that this can be done, and I don't consider it cheating so much as poor sportsmanship. In Thorn Gulley's case, though, I couldn't give 2 sh*ts about sportsmanship.

I think that this is cheating because it gives you a higher chance if winning. Say you win 50% of the time except on TG, where you win 0% of the time. Then your win probability goes up from 45.5% up to 50%. Even though the probability only goes up a little, it is still cheating. You could take this to the extreme by quitting every time unless you get glitch, where Feedback has a strong advantage.

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(03-27-2014 10:30 PM)SuperDonkey Wrote:  

(03-27-2014 09:01 AM)Bbobb555 Wrote:  There is no wit advantage... FTA only exists on Foundry and War Garden.

Now that we're getting more data in OSN, we might be able to make a better determination as to which boards have a nice first-player advantage. I suspect you'll find a lot on 4-wit-point boards since that's where the first player also has the wit advantage.

Don't know how you're analyzing the wit advantage, but since play is asynchronous, I think you have to look at the total wit you have had to spend up to that point compared to your opponent. So on 4-wit-point boards, the totals go: 5, 8, 12, 15, 19, etc. Thus as P1, you have the following surplus/deficit by turn: +5, -3, +4, -3, +4, -3, etc. That means on Turn 5, all things considered, I have 4 more wit to play with than my opponent, while on Turn 6 he has only 3 more wit than I do. This might be slight but I bet it shows up over the course of hundreds of games.

On 2-wit boards it's the opposite though, so it evens out.