(07-09-2012 02:15 AM)projectantares Wrote: (07-09-2012 02:00 AM)timcoffman Wrote: Throughout this conversation I have consistently tried to make the point that I advocate (a) unlimited undo/redo of actions that (b) do not affect gameplay by revealing information.
Regardless of whether new information is revealed you should be penalized for any movement made. If a scouting party were deployed during the Battle of Gettysburg, even with no gained information, a decision was made. The Commander must make an informed and appropriate decision BEFORE giving orders, based on current / relevant intel. So to say, troops aren't sent out, find nothing (or their Superior decides they really ought to have gone somewhere else), and re-deploy without taking time. In this case, time = wits.
This feature would also serve to drag games on even further than some people allow. It would be equivalent to moving every piece on your chess board to every possible location, without moving your hand from the pieces, to see what pattern "feels best" - considering no intel is to be gained from these actions. Someone who understands the mechanics of the game shouldn't need this "tool."
I'd have been on your side, years and years ago, when I was a bit too young to grasp Final Fantasy Tactics...
Learning that a ex does not contain your opponent
IS gaining information.
Due to its asynchronous nature, I don't think the interval between turns would be affected by adding tools to help decision-making. I always have to wait for my opponents for like 1/2 hour now anyway. An extra 5 minute't make a difference to that.
(07-09-2012 02:23 AM)Kamikaze28 Wrote: (07-09-2012 02:15 AM)projectantares Wrote: (07-09-2012 02:00 AM)timcoffman Wrote: Throughout this conversation I have consistently tried to make the point that I advocate (a) unlimited undo/redo of actions that (b) do not affect gameplay by revealing information.
Regardless of whether new information is revealed you should be penalized for any movement made. If a scouting party were deployed during the Battle of Gettysburg, even with no gained information, a decision was made. The Commander must make an informed and appropriate decision BEFORE giving orders, based on current / relevant intel. So to say, troops aren't sent out, find nothing (or their Superior decides they really ought to have gone somewhere else), and re-deploy without taking time. In this case, time = wits.
This feature would also serve to drag games on even further than some people allow. It would be equivalent to moving every piece on your chess board to every possible location, without moving your hand from the pieces, to see what pattern "feels best" - considering no intel is to be gained from these actions. Someone who understands the mechanics of the game shouldn't need this "tool."
I'd have been on your side, years and years ago, when I was a bit too young to grasp Final Fantasy Tactics...
I think this comparison does not help this discussion.
As I understand timcoffman, he wants to be able to rectify input errors whose rectification has no consequence whatsoever. Accidentally un-shelling and re-shelling a Bombshell without moving it is a prime example, as has been mentioned already. Spawning the wrong unit (without changing the Fog of War) due to a bump in the road or something like that is another example.
I don't disagree with his points, but I doubt a clean implementation is possible and even harder to communicate to the average user which will go bananas because he could undo this move but not that move.
Here's another problem - consider the following order of moves:
- inconsequential action (e. g. un-shell your Bombshell)
- consequential action (e. g. move a Runner)
- inconsequential action (e. g. re-shell your Bombshell)
- undo
Where would you land? after 2? could you undo your first, incosequential action? This gives me headaches to imagine implementing something like this.
Thanks for the detailed explanation. You've hit it exactly!
I agree it's not a straightforward implementation problem to solve- if it were, they'd have done it from the start.
