Rising in the Rankings

.Memories. · 05-31-2014, 02:11 AM

I'm confused how he managed to get matched up with only his own accounts. Anyone care to explain?

amoffett11 · 05-31-2014, 02:17 AM

I didn't think about how it throws off the stats as well; more reason that this is a pain.

Bbobb - I understand the comparison to hackers searching for weaknesses so that they can be defended, I thought of the same thing. But
A) no one asked him to do this. Typically these people are hired
B) while this has been a weakness for some time, no one has exploited it until now. This is a community of 99.9% fair players. And now that he's demonstrated the method to everyone, there's nothing to stop other people from doing the same. Again, I consider this to be cheating, no different than someone using a hack to gain extra wits, etc.

Unless the accounts are deleted, they'll still remain at the top of the ST division. I haven't been on Outwitters yet to see how far I'm behind now, but it's been my goal to be #1 this season, and I'll be really annoyed if I can't get there because someone decided to win 50 fake games at 3 in the morning when no one else was making games.

[PETA] Cor13:4 · (This post was last modified: 05-31-2014 02:23 AM by [PETA] Cor13:4.)

(05-31-2014 02:11 AM).Memories. Wrote: I'm confused how he managed to get matched up with only his own accounts. Anyone care to explain?

Probably shouldn't publicaly, even though it's not too hard to figure out. I can send you a message with how he probably did it.

Flarp55 · (This post was last modified: 05-31-2014 02:47 AM by Flarp55.)

(05-31-2014 01:41 AM)[PETA] Cor13:4 Wrote: I don't know, I kinda find it annoying that these games will also throw off the OSN statistics. Now that we have all the games recorded we were able to start doing some good analysis, but suddenly he inserts dozens of fake games that will throw off every statistic.

That's true. Maybe he should have posted in advance that he was doing this. It would also have given A&A a chance to tell him that he shouldn't do it for whatever reason.

(05-31-2014 02:17 AM)amoffett11 Wrote: I didn't think about how it throws off the stats as well; more reason that this is a pain.

Bbobb - I understand the comparison to hackers searching for weaknesses so that they can be defended, I thought of the same thing. But
A) no one asked him to do this. Typically these people are hired
B) while this has been a weakness for some time, no one has exploited it until now. This is a community of 99.9% fair players. And now that he's demonstrated the method to everyone, there's nothing to stop other people from doing the same. Again, I consider this to be cheating, no different than someone using a hack to gain extra wits, etc.

Unless the accounts are deleted, they'll still remain at the top of the ST division. I haven't been on Outwitters yet to see how far I'm behind now, but it's been my goal to be #1 this season, and I'll be really annoyed if I can't get there because someone decided to win 50 fake games at 3 in the morning when no one else was making games.

A) That's not always true. Think about the time hackers leaked Adobe passwords. The time AOL search histories were leaked. The time Snowden leaked NSA documents.
B) You have a point. I think that he should probably have PMed A&A about this weakness, and told them to do what they wanted with it, including deleting the accounts. But this is extremely time-consuming to execute, and I don't think cheaters will use it very often.

I think it's pretty self-evident that the accounts must be deleted, otherwise it really is cheating. And

.Memories. · 05-31-2014, 04:13 AM

(05-31-2014 02:23 AM)[PETA] Cor13:4 Wrote:
(05-31-2014 02:11 AM).Memories. Wrote: I'm confused how he managed to get matched up with only his own accounts. Anyone care to explain?

Probably shouldn't publicaly, even though it's not too hard to figure out. I can send you a message with how he probably did it.

Thanks!

Yeah - I consider this cheating. Even if he did it to prove some point, no new information was really gained...

SuperDonkey · (This post was last modified: 05-31-2014 05:38 AM by SuperDonkey.)

(05-31-2014 01:41 AM)[PETA] Cor13:4 Wrote: I don't know, I kinda find it annoying that these games will also throw off the OSN statistics. Now that we have all the games recorded we were able to start doing some good analysis, but suddenly he inserts dozens of fake games that will throw off every statistic.

He doesn't have to derank his accounts if he wants them to drop off the list. All he has to do is cancel any games he has going and take no turns for a week or two and they will drop off automatically from the list.

Yes, this is the plan if the devs do nothing. I could ask the devs to delete the accounts themselves, but I've asked them to do several things and so far I'm batting .000 on that.

I did this because it was interesting. I see no rule against it; it is possible due to a (presumably) unintended consequence of the structure of the game--which the devs are already aware of, as some have pointed out.

I expected a variety of responses to this. Some people are going to say 'Wow, that's really cool!' Like me, they're interested in the mechanics and the game within the game--or they just appreciate extreme power gaming. Some are going to say 'CHEATING! This violates the spirit of the rules!' And some are going to say 'Meh.'

All these responses are fine with me. I'm not going to argue for one or another--I can see this from all those points of view. Let each pontificate according to his own temperament.

Gullsjakal · (This post was last modified: 05-31-2014 06:31 AM by Gullsjakal.)

Since the automatic posting of league matches to OSN began a few months ago, it became apparent that a few players have been gaming the 1v1 league matchup system to get a disproportionate number of first player games. Most likely quitting games which they feel don't offer a FPA (although I have no statistics to support that as games which are quit before the 2nd player is assigned are not posted to OSN). Unfortunately, it is trivial in the arranged 2v2 league matchup system to ensure you are the first team and that the game is on a board which you feel offers a FTA. As many have already pointed out, I hope this only further illustrates the need for an improved league matchup system.

SuperDonkey · (This post was last modified: 05-31-2014 06:32 AM by SuperDonkey.)

(05-31-2014 01:41 AM)[PETA] Cor13:4 Wrote: I don't know, I kinda find it annoying that these games will also throw off the OSN statistics. Now that we have all the games recorded we were able to start doing some good analysis, but suddenly he inserts dozens of fake games that will throw off every statistic.

This is actually a *very* good point and one that I hadn't considered. If you want to know how STs playing as Adorables do against STs playing as Scallywags, you're going to have some really whacked-out statistics. Still, let me make two points:

1) We don't know how whacked out the stats are already. If a player selects Adorables and draws Peekaboo as FP, how many times have they quit it? We don't know. Examples could be added, but I believe this problem would also be fixed by the changes I suggested. So while my submissions admittedly further sully the purity of the stats you're gathering, I think you're fooling yourself if you think you can with confidence say that they were trustworthy previously.

2) Gathering stats on Adorables vs Scallywags is one use of OSN. Gathering stats on what it takes to reach ST is another use. If OSN doesn't want us using it for the second purpose, perhaps we could get that "Do Not Submit To OSN" optional button added that I was lobbying for earlier (although in the context of friendlies).

Edit: Ah, I see Gullsjakal already made my point.

Flarp55 · (This post was last modified: 05-31-2014 06:31 AM by Flarp55.)

Maybe just exclude any of his games in all analyses?

And maybe CP could help by purging his replays from the data files.

[PETA] Cor13:4 · (This post was last modified: 05-31-2014 06:40 AM by [PETA] Cor13:4.)

(05-31-2014 06:28 AM)SuperDonkey Wrote:
(05-31-2014 01:41 AM)[PETA] Cor13:4 Wrote: I don't know, I kinda find it annoying that these games will also throw off the OSN statistics. Now that we have all the games recorded we were able to start doing some good analysis, but suddenly he inserts dozens of fake games that will throw off every statistic.

This is actually a *very* good point and one that I hadn't considered. If you want to know how STs playing as Adorables do against STs playing as Scallywags, you're going to have some really whacked-out statistics. Still, let me make two points:

1) We don't know how whacked out the stats are already. If a player selects Adorables and draws Peekaboo as FP, how many times have they quit it? We don't know. Examples could be added, but I believe this problem would also be fixed by the changes I suggested. So while my submissions admittedly further sully the purity of the stats you're gathering, I think you're fooling yourself if you think you can with confidence say that they were trustworthy previously.

2) Gathering stats on Adorables vs Scallywags is one use of OSN. Gathering stats on what it takes to reach ST is another use. If OSN doesn't want us using it for the second purpose, perhaps we could get that "Do Not Submit To OSN" optional button added that I was lobbying for earlier (although in the context of friendlies).

Edit: Ah, I see Gullsjakal already made my point.

I don't know, I would disagree that the statistics weren't trustworthy. Most of the statistics are not changed whether or not someone used P1 map selection.

It might throw off overall Team A. vs. Team B stats (and this is assuming that there are more players of a certain team that do P1 selection that of another team), but it won't throw off Team A vs. Team B stats by map. It also doesn't throw off any in-game statistic, such as # of turns, # of untis spawned\special spawned, etc. which your fake games definitely do throw off.