Heavies to 4 Damage

[[PETA] Doodat]

(09-26-2013 02:26 AM)Cor13:4 Wrote:  I think this change would be too drastic and actually benefit Adorables the most, because mobying a heavy would be insane now.

However, how about lowering the heavy cost to 3 wits, instead of 4?

I don't know, it just puts the mobi so far up and it's hard to attack if the mobi and heavy are in the way. A sniper is still more useful. It's just a difference in positioning.

[CombatEX]

This change is too drastic. Any single number tweaking has been discussed before, either publicly or on the beta forums. 3 wits, 4 attack, 3 movement, 5 base health. It's all too much. If we make heavies the focus over 4 hp soldiers, games will just be slower and more "turtley". However, I will admit that despite pre-deployed heavies filling a good role, spawning heavies is almost never worthwhile, even defensively. Very rarely do you absolutely need a 5 hp block, so a 4 hp soldier works better as well as being much more efficient. When you need to deal a defensive 3 damage, a sniper spawn is almost always better than a heavy too. So clearly there is an issue that could be addressed here somehow even if it may not really be necessary. (Outwitters works fine as it is. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"?)

Heavies, The Second Special?

Potentially you could make heavies a "second special" for each team which would allow some more creative fixes as well as potentially addressing some balance issues. Keep in mind that as a longtime advocate of Outwitters' simplicity, I hesitate to even post the following, but I feel it's worth discussing.

Heavies will still cost the same and will have an ability that can be activated by clicking on the heavy twice as is done with the mobi, bramble, and bombshell. These abilities cost 1 wit. I also tried to keep within the theme of the teams.

The Goal
- The heavy supports other units by buffing them
- The heavy's ability can still be useful without a special deployed
- The buff for each team helps address problematic strategies often used against the team
- The buff also has other applications that diversify gameplay besides simply helping in a specific matchup

Veggienauts
[Growth] The heavy can release nutrients into the ground temporarily buffing nearby units.
X adjacent allies attack increased to 4. (X can be tweaked for balance.)

Reasoning: I feel that people in this thread are on the right track and this would help Veggienauts break Scallywag 4 hp walls to kill bombshells.

Scallywags
[Spyglass] The heavy uses its spyglass to spot targets for snipers and bombshells increasing their range.
X adjacent snipers and/or bombshell ranges increased by 1. All damage output(s) of units aided this way are decreased by 1. (This means no bombshell splash and base damage down to 2. X can be tweaked for balance.)

Reasoning: Scallywags only really struggle with Adorables who can often out-turtle bombshells with mobi hit and run. The key to this heavy is to make bombshells more viable against Adorables without making them even more broken in other matchups. This ability allows Scallywags to pick away at Adorables, returning the favor. However, when using this ability sniper and bombshell shots only do 2 damage and no splash damage so this ability wouldn't be able to damage scramblers, thorns, etc hiding behind soldier walls. This ability would also make SvS much more enjoyable as it would make mass bombshell turtling on both sides more difficult. The 4 range, 2 damage attack would be effective at picking off 4 hp soldiers walls. No more 100 turn+ games on Peakaboo!

Feedback
[Overcharge] The heavy can overcharge adjacent allies to gain temporary boosts in mobility.
X adjacent allies mobility increased by 1 until end of turn. All affected units take 2 damage. Targeted units with 2 or less health would die. (X can be tweaked for balance.)

Reasoning: Picking off bombshells would become less difficult, however, after killing a bombshell using this ability you would have a bunch of low hp units right next to your opponent. It's hard to say where the balance would end up, but it definitely would make breaking bombshell turtles easier while not rendering the bombshell completely useless.

Adorables
[Hearten] The presence of this heavy heartens nearby allies allowing them to accomplish more than usual.
X adjacent allies are reset allowing them to attack a second time. (Note that only attacks are reset, not movement. X can be tweaked for balance.)

Reasoning: Adorables are the least in need of a buff to heavies as they are the only team who can spawn them efficiently for anything other than a desperate defense. They also are the least in need of a unit to help against other teams. However, Veggienauts can be somewhat problematic as unlike bombshells and scramblers, mobis can't do much to push back thorns. The idea with this ability is to help clean up thorns by increasing the number of attacks an Adorables player can do.

CONCLUSION
Remember, these are just rough ideas to illustrate one way things could be done. As Outwitters 2 is a long way off and this won't happen in Outwitters 1, the important thing isn't the ideas themselves, but rather the overall concept of using heavies as a second special to make them more useful, as well as potentially addressing balance issues in the process.

If (hopefully "when") Outwitters 2 is announced we can begin serious discussion on whether the overall premise makes sense, and if so, propose serious suggestions for team-specific heavy abilities. Again though, when the time comes I'm not sure I would even be in favor of this system! Perhaps there is a better way to make heavies more useful? I still think that a simple number change is NOT going to cut it and would rather leave heavies as they are presently than to see a 3 wit, 4 attack, 5 base hp, or 3 movement heavy.

[TheGreatErenan]

Those are definitely some interesting ideas! I like it. But yeah, probably not for Outwitters (1). Maybe something OML could experiment with for the next one.

[boyxoneder]

sorry to bump a post from so long ago but totally do what combat ex said. that is all

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but the real reason i bumped this was to discuss heavies. the game seems to ignore them is there any way to balance them better to make them worth spawning. be it 4 attack 3 move 5 hp, a special ability, or maybe if they get a kill they heal to full health or gain a movement or an attack. is there any way to balance the heavy so that they are spawned. because i do not think i have ever spawned a heavy

[HuskyPete]

Heavies are good defensive units when boosted. I don't think they need a buff at all

[boyxoneder]

if you spawn a heavy odds are you are bad

[Flarp55]

(04-18-2014 07:48 AM)boyxoneder Wrote:  sorry to bump a post from so long ago but totally do what combat ex said. that is all

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but the real reason i bumped this was to discuss heavies. the game seems to ignore them is there any way to balance them better to make them worth spawning. be it 4 attack 3 move 5 hp, a special ability, or maybe if they get a kill they heal to full health or gain a movement or an attack. is there any way to balance the heavy so that they are spawned. because i do not think i have ever spawned a heavy

They should gain a move and attack upon killing a unit. The opposition would be left wondering how all their units died.

[boyxoneder]

I meant like if you get a kill with the heavy his movement range goes up one. all of those seem negligible the heavy needs either one more move or one more attack

[[PETA] Doodat]

(04-18-2014 09:37 AM)boyxoneder Wrote:  if you spawn a heavy odds are you are bad

This is the problem I have with this statement. I don't like saying that heavies aren't worth it in all situations. Turtling games have uses for heavies (this glitch game I'm playing with amoffett right now...

The point is, it's the same thing as saying veggienauts are bad because barely anyone plays them. Think about this. The veggienauts came in pretty late. Scallies, feedback, and adorables had been used since the beginning. Just because it's hard to find strategies to use them effectively does not mean that they're completely useless. Similarly, for heavies, just because the meta right now is soldiers and more soldiers doesn't mean that heavies are completely useless.

[Flarp55]

(04-18-2014 10:10 AM)boyxoneder Wrote:  I meant like if you get a kill with the heavy his movement range goes up one. all of those seem negligible the heavy needs either one more move or one more attack

It was a joke.