Bombshell Turtling - Balancing Suggestion

[Ravernoth]

There's a general consensus that at a Super Titan level there is a problem with Bombshell turtling.

Turtling and defensive play is fine - it's great that Outwitters allows a variety of strategies - but done patiently and properly, turtling with a Bombshell becomes too effective compared to other strategies and can lead to formulaic wins against all but the very best players (I believe Vivafringe can attest to this).

Suggested Change

Reduce the overall effectiveness of the Bombshell by increasing attack cost to 2 wits.

Having one action cost 2 wits would lead to confusion, so I suggest splitting the Bombshell's attack into two:

1. Initial direct attack (1 wit) - deals 2 damage to one hex
2. Second splash attack (1 wit) - deals 1 damage to one hex and all adjacent hexes. Has to be the same target as the first attack.
   

So in effect it would take 2 wits to recreate the Bombshell's current attack

With this change, I believe the Bombshell would still be effective, but not overpowered when used by a skilled turtler.

Questions

- Would the Bombshell still be on par with other specials at high levels?

- Is this a suitable a reduction in power? The bombshell often isn't fired that many times in a game.

Would love input from everyone especially high level players, skilled turtlers, and also Alvendor and Vivafringe who were testing turtling.

[Syvan]

First, although I don't like turtling, I'm not sure I think the bombshell needs to be nerfed either. It is designed to hold a position and it does that really well. I'm not sure spending an extra wit per attack will really change the way that games play out. The question becomes, if the bombshell is nerfed to the point that it can't effectively hold a position, then what is its purpose?

I really think this is a problem with maps, not with specials. People don't complain about bombshells on Sweetie Pie or Long Nine for a reason. They can just walk around if necessary. The larger the maps, the less effective bombshells will be, and the more effective Mobis will be. (Not sure about Feedback, large maps probably favor them to a lesser extent)

I would love to see breakdown of team winrates by map. I would bet that adorables are advantaged on sweetie pie. Long nine and foundry probably won't show an effect, and the small maps will favor Scallywags.

[Promicide]

Turtling can be frustrating but consider the stipulations already placed on the unit. It spawns with one health, and cannot attack the same turn as it is spawned. I have to agree with Syvan that the smaller maps are a prominent source of frustration when it comes to being bombarded by its reptilious function.

Bombshell is inherently a defensive unit. I've only seen it used offensively in 2v2s or when mind controlled from a fixed position, but lets set that aside for now as these are rare occurrences. My personal advice if your playing feedback (whose scrambler is primarily offensive) is to use cheap unit walls to create fog of war to get to that turtle. Once you pull it off though you can take out almost the entire opposing teams resolve and that players motivation to continue.

The teddy faction is my preference though, since I utilize moby as an auxiliary spawn point. By counting squares and your opponents wits, cooking that turtle should be easy (unless your playing with that elite clan of badasses who are capable of always seem to know exactly what tactics your using.

Bombshell? Overpowered? Hell no. Powerful? Very much so. Especially on small maps. Maybe the vegetable clan can shake that up a bit too.

[CombatEX]

I agree with Syvan. Until I see data, don't nerf the bombshell. I'm starting to sense SC2 balance whine syndrome (not talking to ts in particular, but I just dont want this to devolve into battle.net forums). Please do things like provide replays and statistics if you want to make a valid point. Anyway, I hope OML takes the approach Blizzard does, that is, take their time in decide balance changes based on detailed study of matchup statistics on various maps. I feel like these changes are just going to make the bombshell not viable. The bombshell is meant to lock down certain parts of the map (I guess you can call this turtling). Bombshells inherently share characteristics with turtling. Making them bad doesn't change their role. How do you imagine players using a bombshell that first involve setting it up in a strong position and protecting it with units? Moving a bombshell is expensive and so as a good player you want to move it as little as possible and just protect it (turtle around that key location). It's the intended playstyle. Is it too strong? Again, give me some stats. It would be interesting to see the most played team next to player names in division rankings by the way. This would shed a little more light on balance at the higher levels. Ultimately though team matchup stats on a map by map basis is what we need.

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I would like to add to what Syvan said about maps. In Starcraft like Outwitters, maps play a huge role. Attempting to balance maps for each matchup is much more common than balancing units (there are even professional mapmaking teams) since the units are largely balanced already. In Outwitters the specials seem balanced closely enough such that map changes should be sufficient to tweak balance in the matchups (as is done in SC2). Good maps are as crucial as unit balance as long as the units are reasonably close to begin with (as they are in Outwitters, no special is WAY better even if they aren't completely balanced).

[Ravernoth]

(10-07-2012 07:48 AM)Syvan Wrote:  First, although I don't like turtling, I'm not sure I think the bombshell needs to be nerfed either. It is designed to hold a position and it does that really well. I'm not sure spending an extra wit per attack will really change the way that games play out. The question becomes, if the bombshell is nerfed to the point that it can't effectively hold a position, then what is its purpose?

Appreciate your thoughts. I think with this change, the bombshell would still effectively hold a position. Even with the extra wit, it's attack would be very cost efficient. But it would give a turtler a few less wits to counter with, and correct the imbalance that I think is there.

Battling a well defended bombshell should be challenging, but achievable with skill, whereas currently a simple defensive formation with bombshell on a small map instantly stacks the odds too much in the turtler's favor.

(10-07-2012 07:48 AM)Syvan Wrote:  I really think this is a problem with maps, not with specials. People don't complain about bombshells on Sweetie Pie or Long Nine for a reason. They can just walk around if necessary. The larger the maps, the less effective bombshells will be, and the more effective Mobis will be. (Not sure about Feedback, large maps probably favor them to a lesser extent)

I would love to see breakdown of team winrates by map. I would bet that adorables are advantaged on sweetie pie. Long nine and foundry probably won't show an effect, and the small maps will favor Scallywags.

I agree that the problem arises on certain maps. On small maps it can hold pretty much the only avenue of attack.

However since it's a given that there are small maps, and maps are randomized in league, the bombshell should not hold too a large advantage on these maps.

Adorables and Feedback, if they do hold an advantage on large maps, don't hold it to the same degree.

[garcia1000]

How about "Only one special unit at a time"?

I haven't had problems with breaking single bombshell. 2 bombshell is impossible though.

[Syvan]

(10-07-2012 10:15 AM)garcia1000 Wrote:  How about "Only one special unit at a time"?

Ooh, i do like that.

[Ravernoth]

(10-07-2012 10:20 AM)Syvan Wrote:  

(10-07-2012 10:15 AM)garcia1000 Wrote:  How about "Only one special unit at a time"?

Ooh, i do like that.

Yes that is interesting.. maybe just bombshells, not a blanket rule though, those multi scrambler exchanges are great

Maybe too restrictive?

[Butternut22]

I think what should happen is that a bombshell can only attack if it directly hits a target. This way, it cannot fire at a hex with no unit on it three hexes away and do splash damage right behind it. The only way it would be able to attack is to directly hit a unit. Would this work maybe?

[GoHeat 3]

(10-07-2012 10:36 AM)Butternut22 Wrote:  I think what should happen is that a bombshell can only attack if it directly hits a target. This way, it cannot fire at a hex with no unit on it three hexes away and do splash damage right behind it. The only way it would be able to attack is to directly hit a unit. Would this work maybe?

That would definitely help with reducing its power. I actually kind of like that idea!