Veggienauts Bramble - Suggested improvements to initial beta version

[worldfamous]

(10-05-2012 04:36 AM)bmike Wrote:  

(10-05-2012 02:10 AM)Harti Wrote:  

(10-05-2012 12:13 AM)ArtNJ Wrote:  7, + move +root, = 9 just to get started.

I have no idea how often I've mentioned that already but rooting is still, intentionally, free

This is going to be interesting to compare to the shell.

shell "root" - not free
shell "unroot" - not free
shooting shell scrambled - unshells if the shell isn't a partner in 2v2
(OP must use a wit to shell and can't shoot that turn. If you scramble a 2v2 partner's shell it loses health but is still shelled and can fire)

bramble "root" - free
bramble "unroot" - free ?? haven't tested
bramble scramble - unroots (but less of a penalty since the OP can root it for no wits - can push thorns that turn for a wit)

I wonder if scrambling teammates units was ever tested. Seems logical to allow but would probably overpower the scrambler.

[bmike]

(10-05-2012 05:57 AM)worldfamous Wrote:  I wonder if scrambling teammates units was ever tested. Seems logical to allow but would probably overpower the scrambler.

I'm testing it right now - will work through a bunch of scenarios for this next release. The 2v2 allows lots of permutations.

[fruit player]

I've been playing the classic teams against the Veggies and the Bramble is not underpowered at all. I'm at the Master League so I think, I may be a fair comparison. True it costs one wit to sprout but you can exponentially grow too fast and I would say too far. The Bombshell can cope with the expanding sprouts, and the Scramble can Scramble the sprouts too so it becomes a fair game there, Veggie against Veggie if booth roll the Bramble it becomes an entirely different game like Outwitters combined with the chinese board game Go. As for the Adorables is a bit more tricky, in their favor Mobi can become a menace way faster than a Bramble but (specially in small maps) if the Bramble gets too grow too much is nearly impossible to turn the tides.

---

I was ready to call foul there as I felt the Bramble could expand way too far way too quickly specially if you are using the Adorables, but if you move your chips right its fair ground because the Adorables can attack more swiftly. After all the Adorables are a offensive team.
The veggies are a great addition, we now have two defensive teams and two offensive teams. So far it seems to be well balanced, what it's becoming more certain now is that you can hardly win without deploying and mastering your special unit.

[joelduque]

I suggest being trapped or not able to move until the next turn is over whatever unit attacks bramble or any of its thorns. The attacker may still attack.

[Demon]

(10-06-2012 04:31 PM)joelduque Wrote:  I suggest being trapped or not able to move until the next turn is over whatever unit attacks bramble or any of its thorns. The attacker may still attack.

That might be overpowered. The entire point of attacking is to reduce resources, right? But if you're suffering a temporary resource penalty for attacking, it's not worth it. Yet the alternative is to let it grow free and barricade you. Lose-lose, overpowered.

[Harti]

So far we've suggested the following buffs:

- Increase movement and planting range to 3
- OR 2 HP Thorns
- OR Thorns can draw (i.e. teleport) enemy units around in their radius
- OR you can recede your own Thorns and get 1 wit refunded

but nothing seems to have caught OML's interest yet.

From Alex being busy and Adam writing blog entries I also figure we're getting maps in the next beta build =)

[Syvan]

I think teleporting enemy units should be avoided at all costs. The thing that really broke HA for me was that silly wave move that rearranged your units.

[RandyDogz]

I think allowing a friendly unit to move onto a thorn would be interesting. Right now thorns can really get in the way - while I'm sure practice will help with more efficient placement, right now they seem to be the only friendly unit that can be detrimental. Snipers in particular can get difficult to use when there are a lot of thorns. When standing on a thorn, opponents first attacks clears thorn but no damage to the unit that was on it? Or unit drops to 1 hp when cleared...

3 movement feels like a little much, you could more easily get to spawn/wit points which is a big wit waster to clear.

2 hp thorns could be overpowering for the same reason, needing to send a soldier or 2 runners (plus 2 wits to attack twice) to clear.

I've been trying a lot of thorn spamming, ie aggressively spreading to the opponents base, and it can work. This makes bramble interesting as perhaps it can be played aggressively for offense or more passively for defense.

The other thing that kinda seems off is no +1 wit for thorn kills, just because its different from the rest. And that burrowing doesn't cost anything. One of my fav things about Outwitters is the simplicity and consistency of rules, and I worry that over time there are more and more 'exceptions' complicating things. Especially thinking of new players, you don't want to lose the 'easy to learn hard to master' idea.

But again, I think trying to test drive the bramble AND the +1 wit for kill change at the same time makes it challenging to evaluate. For instance +1 wit for thorn kills is probably too much and would really weaken the bramble, but then maybe 2 hp thorns would balance it out, there are a lot of variables....

All that said, I think the bramble seems pretty well balanced as is. I'm curious, how much 'tweaking' was done on other specials (this is my first beta)? Were initial concerns 'worked out' as people got practice on how the use them??

[Gf!sh]

(10-07-2012 01:32 AM)RandyDogz Wrote:  All that said, I think the bramble seems pretty well balanced as is. I'm curious, how much 'tweaking' was done on other specials (this is my first beta)? Were initial concerns 'worked out' as people got practice on how the use them??

I've heard that Scrambler used to be a lot stronger (2 base HP, object kept full health), but was 'degraded' into it's current form due to overpoweredness.

[Ravernoth]

(10-07-2012 01:32 AM)RandyDogz Wrote:  I think allowing a friendly unit to move onto a thorn would be interesting. Right now thorns can really get in the way - while I'm sure practice will help with more efficient placement, right now they seem to be the only friendly unit that can be detrimental. Snipers in particular can get difficult to use when there are a lot of thorns. When standing on a thorn, opponents first attacks clears thorn but no dmaage to the unit that was on it?

3 movement feels like a little much, you could more easily get to spawn/wit points which is a big wit waster to clear.

2 hp thorns could be overpowering for the same reason, needing to send a soldier or 2 runners (plus 2 wits to attack twice) to clear.

I've been trying a lot of thorn spamming, ie aggressively spreading to the opponents base, and it can work. This makes bramble interesting as perhaps it can be played aggressively for offense or more passively for defense.

The other thing that kinda seems off is no +1 wit for thorn kills, just because its different from the rest. And that burrowing doesn't cost anything. One of my fav things about Outwitters is the simplicity and consistency of rules, and I worry that over time there are more and more 'exceptions' complicating things. Especially thinking of new players, you don't want to lose the 'easy to learn hard to master' idea.

But again, I think trying to test drive the bramble AND the +1 wit for kill change at the same time makes it challenging to evaluate. For instance +1 wit for thorn kills is probably too much and would really weaken the bramble, but then maybe 2 hp thorns would balance it out, there are a lot of variables....

All that said, I think the bramble seems pretty well balanced as is. I'm curious, how much 'tweaking' was done on other specials (this is my first beta)? Were initial concerns 'worked out' as people got practice on how the use them??

Although the 'exponentially spreading barriers' mechanic sounds cool initially, I do wonder if it's the right ability to add to Outwitters.

It sounds like it can be underpowered in most situations but overpowered in some, and really changes the feel of the game.

Those who are in the beta - is it fun to use and interesting to play against? I'm wondering if when it's used aggressively by the opponent, does it become frustrating just trying to remove thorns that are clogging the map?

This is apart from whether it's balanced. The other specials have simple abilities, yet powerful and effective abilities. My vote would be for something simple, more controlled and easy to understand e.g.

- Only 1 Thorn per turn, but more powerful e.g. able to attack
- A different type of ability altogether, that still fits the Bramble theme e.g. immobilizing an enemy unit with a Thorn