Outwitters, Analysis, and You - Post #2!

wonderpug · 08-23-2012, 12:26 PM

(08-23-2012 08:28 AM)NathanDetr0it Wrote: One of the things I'm really hoping this will be useful for is to spur commentary forward, which I'm super-interested in. With most great games I reach a tipping point somewhere where observing the metagame is just as enjoyable as playing the game itself (hey, i'm weird, OK?) and I can sense the rising of the metagame tide already with Outwitters.

I enjoy this kind of discussion, too, and I can definitely see the metagame aspects of Outwitters growing more and more.

The gameplay against my usual opponents has gotten to where we can always count on the other doing the "clever really good move" that's the one way to counter something, but since we now avoid doing the move we know the other will know how to counter, people are occasionally doing the move they know the other knows they know they can counter, so they do the counterable move because they know they'll think they'll only do that move because they know they know they know they'll only do that move if....

Ok, I'm sure I messed up that train of thought somewhere, but you get what I mean. It can get very much like the iocaine powder logic circle.

Another example: in another thread someone said you can assume someone has zeroed out their wit reserve if they move a unit adjacent to one of yours without attacking, or fail to retreat someone in danger because other moves need to be done. Sound advice, but I would not at all be surprised to see one of my usually opponents do a sacrificial fake out move, making me think they have no wit reserves, just because they know I'm counting and they want to bluff me into doing something dumb.

TofuBot · 08-25-2012, 03:45 AM

Excellent analysis! It's stuff like this that makes me annoyed to see that "Unbalanced" review as the third most helpfull review on the Outwitters app store page. I wish it could be voted into oblivion and replaced by a link to this thread.

Keep up the amazingly thorough work! I'm looking forward to more analyses.

NathanDetr0it · (This post was last modified: 08-27-2012 03:23 PM by NathanDetr0it.)

Adam (on the blog) Wrote:While you wait, I’d recommend everyone check out this thread from our forums, if you haven’t already. NathanDetr0it, which I like to think is not a psuedonym, does an excellent job breaking down the strategic subtleties behind Outwitters’ simple rules. It might change the way you look at your turns. It might change the way you look at your life.

Wow, thanks!

(08-23-2012 12:00 PM)awpertunity Wrote: I am confused by the 2nd number associated with "Spawn" though (6 for the example sharkfood map). How is this the maximum distance from the friendly base (and why is it even important)? I could argue that it is 11 if I wanted to go around that little lake in the middle. Or infinite if I'm retarded... lol

So the idea with that second larger number was to show the shortest distance from the spawn to the furthest base-adjacent hex. I know that it is a bit weird; that's because I was trying to do several things with one fast number. If this is confusing everybody, i will break it down into a few metrics.

The things I was trying to do:
- Indicate the kind of units that can reach/block the base from the spawn
- Describe, generally, how easily the base can be defended from the spawn
- Indicate the presence and extent of any backdoors

For example, the number on SFI is 4-6. there's only one number set, because there is only one spawn. The "4" indicates that there are some spaces that soldiers/snipers could reach and attack enemies that are adjacent to the base. It also indicates, correctly, that SFI's base is moderately (deceptively, given the small map size) tough to defend.

The "6" indicates that the shortest distance to the hardest-to-reach hex is 6 spaces. "Six" is a long way— more than any unit can move in one turn— which implies that there might be a backdoor. Of course, there isn't a true 'backdoor' on SFI, but that space (the "*" in my annotated map) is super-tough to defend (only a runner can attack it from the spawn).

Does that make more sense? I can address this in more detail on Monday if this is causing trouble for more people. One thing I do need to do is add is the average distance from the spawn as a middle number (~4.8, for SFI).

connor3491 · 08-27-2012, 08:51 AM

While we're talking about SFI, I think the fta on this map is underrated. If the first player takes the initiative to attack within a few turns, it's very difficult to defend against because of the spawn location

NathanDetr0it · 08-27-2012, 03:16 PM

(08-27-2012 08:51 AM)connor3491 Wrote: While we're talking about SFI, I think the fta on this map is underrated. If the first player takes the initiative to attack within a few turns, it's very difficult to defend against because of the spawn location

What sort of successful openings are you seeing? Most of the FTA rushes on SFI I have found pretty easy to deal with; although I haven't seen many in high level play either in my own experience or in ST replays.

Like I say in the SFI section, while the base is relatively tough to defend, I feel that the concentration of starting units makes repulsing FTA rushes relatively easy (compared to Foundry or even Peekaboo). That's not to say that it's simple (it's pretty complex and has to be very precisely done), and I'm definitely not saying that 1P and 2P are evenly matched... that's just not the case in any Outwitters map.

connor3491 · (This post was last modified: 08-27-2012 05:50 PM by connor3491.)

(08-27-2012 03:16 PM)NathanDetr0it Wrote:
(08-27-2012 08:51 AM)connor3491 Wrote: While we're talking about SFI, I think the fta on this map is underrated. If the first player takes the initiative to attack within a few turns, it's very difficult to defend against because of the spawn location

What sort of successful openings are you seeing? Most of the FTA rushes on SFI I have found pretty easy to deal with; although I haven't seen many in high level play either in my own experience or in ST replays.

Like I say in the SFI section, while the base is relatively tough to defend, I feel that the concentration of starting units makes repulsing FTA rushes relatively easy (compared to Foundry or even Peekaboo). That's not to say that it's simple (it's pretty complex and has to be very precisely done), and I'm definitely not saying that 1P and 2P are evenly matched... that's just not the case in any Outwitters map.

I don't have a set strategy, that I use for every game.mmi don't save my replays but I might have a recent win I can post.

outwitters://viewgame?id=ag5vdXR3aXR0ZXJzZ2FtZXIRCxIIR2FtZVJvb20YwNuPAQw

There's a link. Basically make 3 soldiers and rush the top

Not really a great example of it but just what I had

wonderpug · 08-27-2012, 10:49 PM

I don't see early Sharkfin rushes anymore, but the FTA still makes its presence known, just a few turns later.

Sakiehl · 08-29-2012, 12:49 AM

There's also a sneak attack of some sort on Sharkfood Island...

You can hit the back side of the opponents base with a sniper from spot A, no matter how many enemy soldiers are in front of you. The Adorables are helpful because you need Mobi to jump him there.

wonderpug · 08-29-2012, 01:17 AM

I just had that sniper sneak attack done on me for the first time. Lost me the match.

Bug? Intended map design?

swimj · 08-29-2012, 01:40 AM

(08-29-2012 12:49 AM)Sakiehl Wrote: There's also a sneak attack of some sort on Sharkfood Island...

You can hit the back side of the opponents base with a sniper from spot A, no matter how many enemy soldiers are in front of you. The Adorables are helpful because you need Mobi to jump him there.

Never saw that opening! I will have to try it sometime. It definitely isn't a bug because the sniper is allowed to fire over spaces.

I still think this is difficult to pull off because a mobi is a big wit investment and not very helpful on sharkfood island, especially if your opponent attacks first. I have lost more games on sharkfood because of badly timed mobi buys than I have won because of mobi tricks.