Heavies to 4 Damage

[[PETA] Doodat]

(09-23-2013 06:44 PM)Gf!sh Wrote:  

(09-23-2013 02:22 PM)Fluffysox Wrote:  

(09-23-2013 11:52 AM)boyxoneder Wrote:  He would still be a defensive unit regardless of his attack. I believe this unit being stronger would bring the Heavy unit more into the rotation of the game. It wouldn't break the Heavy, just make him worth his cost. Also this buff may help Feedback, because scrambling a heavy could happen more often, and veggies, because heavies and veggies would potentially work very well. It would make the 4 hp BS and 4 hp soldier that are very very good for their wits slightly more balanced. It is worth a couple test games to look into

Are you saying scramblers shouldn't go for heavies with 3 attack? And how will 4 attack heavies work well with veggies? Please further explain, I am stupid.

It would counter soldier spam that accompanies defences against Veggienauts.

And for the scrambling heavies thing, it just makes them more valuable if they can scramble a heavy. It can then take out a 4 hp unit with one attack.

[Fluffysox]

(09-23-2013 06:44 PM)Gf!sh Wrote:  

(09-23-2013 02:22 PM)Fluffysox Wrote:  

(09-23-2013 11:52 AM)boyxoneder Wrote:  He would still be a defensive unit regardless of his attack. I believe this unit being stronger would bring the Heavy unit more into the rotation of the game. It wouldn't break the Heavy, just make him worth his cost. Also this buff may help Feedback, because scrambling a heavy could happen more often, and veggies, because heavies and veggies would potentially work very well. It would make the 4 hp BS and 4 hp soldier that are very very good for their wits slightly more balanced. It is worth a couple test games to look into

Are you saying scramblers shouldn't go for heavies with 3 attack? And how will 4 attack heavies work well with veggies? Please further explain, I am stupid.

It would counter soldier spam that accompanies defences against Veggienauts.

Yeah, so you can overkill thorns even more...and if u r suggesting heavies are tanky with high health, you are correct, but that has nothing to do with 4 attack.

[Spillblood]

(09-23-2013 05:42 PM)Fluffysox Wrote:  You just lose? In a game? What's your GC ID?

About a week ago. Second GC account. the one with a lot of oinks.

[boyxoneder]

The reason that feedback could scramble more heavies, is because since heavies are now worth their wits, more heavies would be built, giving feedback a better chance of scrambling one. Furthermore, scrambling a 4 attack heavy is better than scrambling a 3 attack heavy for an obvious reason. It is always nice to scramble a heavy, now it would be better for feedback, as well as more likely. Any other questions stupid guy

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And it would be good with veggies, because the best way to beat veggies is to spam 4 hp soldiers, so making heavies that could one shot those soldiers, and using bramble thorns to protect them, seems like a viable strategy for higher level veggies play. It is all theory now, but this buff could potentially help balance the game. You're only argument is that the Heavies are supposed to be bad. That they are supposed to be a bulky unit that is hard to kill. My argument is that they are not worth their wits and a simple change could make them more useful and make the buffed soldier not the overall best unit in the game (not counting specials)

[[PETA] Doodat]

(09-24-2013 03:40 PM)Fluffysox Wrote:  

(09-23-2013 06:44 PM)Gf!sh Wrote:  

(09-23-2013 02:22 PM)Fluffysox Wrote:  

(09-23-2013 11:52 AM)boyxoneder Wrote:  He would still be a defensive unit regardless of his attack. I believe this unit being stronger would bring the Heavy unit more into the rotation of the game. It wouldn't break the Heavy, just make him worth his cost. Also this buff may help Feedback, because scrambling a heavy could happen more often, and veggies, because heavies and veggies would potentially work very well. It would make the 4 hp BS and 4 hp soldier that are very very good for their wits slightly more balanced. It is worth a couple test games to look into

Are you saying scramblers shouldn't go for heavies with 3 attack? And how will 4 attack heavies work well with veggies? Please further explain, I am stupid.

It would counter soldier spam that accompanies defences against Veggienauts.

Yeah, so you can overkill thorns even more...and if u r suggesting heavies are tanky with high health, you are correct, but that has nothing to do with 4 attack.

No no, he's saying that the meta against veggienauts is 4 hp soldiers right now, so if you are a veggienauts player, you can counter that with heavies that do 4 damage.

[Fluffysox]

(09-25-2013 06:56 AM)Doodat Wrote:  

(09-24-2013 03:40 PM)Fluffysox Wrote:  

(09-23-2013 06:44 PM)Gf!sh Wrote:  

(09-23-2013 02:22 PM)Fluffysox Wrote:  

(09-23-2013 11:52 AM)boyxoneder Wrote:  He would still be a defensive unit regardless of his attack. I believe this unit being stronger would bring the Heavy unit more into the rotation of the game. It wouldn't break the Heavy, just make him worth his cost. Also this buff may help Feedback, because scrambling a heavy could happen more often, and veggies, because heavies and veggies would potentially work very well. It would make the 4 hp BS and 4 hp soldier that are very very good for their wits slightly more balanced. It is worth a couple test games to look into

Are you saying scramblers shouldn't go for heavies with 3 attack? And how will 4 attack heavies work well with veggies? Please further explain, I am stupid.

It would counter soldier spam that accompanies defences against Veggienauts.

Yeah, so you can overkill thorns even more...and if u r suggesting heavies are tanky with high health, you are correct, but that has nothing to do with 4 attack.

No no, he's saying that the meta against veggienauts is 4 hp soldiers right now, so if you are a veggienauts player, you can counter that with heavies that do 4 damage.

It also helps other races too against 4 hp soldier spam. I'm sure this does not only apply to veggies.

[boyxoneder]

Since everyone has the Heavy, yes this was the point of the entire change. The 4 hp soldier is the best overall unit in the game and is very cheap. This could possibly stop them from being spammed to death in high level games. This would bring HEavies more into the game rotation

[[PETA] Doodat]

I know it isn't just applied to veggienauts, but it helps THEM even more because other specials focus around mobility or attacking groups which is effective against 4 hp soldiers.
Mobi is high mobility and can avoid 4 hp soldiers or kill them and reach the back line really well.
Scrambler, well, just scrambles.
Bombshell is a splash damage and can reduce a group of 4 hp soldiers to tears.
Bramble, however, is exceptionally weak against 4 hp soldiers. The only counter right now is to not spawn a bramble. With a heavy doing 4 damage, it will allow them to attack much easier with a bramble. For example, right now, the cheapest way to kill a 4 hp soldier in an attack is 3 wits (4 wits and 1 wit return for killing the unit). If you have a 4 damage heavy, however, it only needs 1 wit (2 wits and 1 wit return). Comparing it with the spawn costs (Bramble 7 wits, probably 3/4 wits to move and root and spawn thorns to hide a heavy, and then 4 + 2 wits for spawning, boosting, and moving a heavy for 16/17 wits total for effective prep) to (4 4hp soldiers, each cost 4 wits to spawn boost and move so 16 wits spent in preparing an attack): it just shows that it's so much easier to create an army with 4hp soldiers. So with a 4 damage heavy, it makes a bramble/heavy combo much more viable. Bramble/Sniper combo is not viable when just going against 4 hp soldiers.
So in overall wit count, it would take 5 wits (3 attacks, 3 movements, 1 wit return) to kill the 5 hp heavy, and the heavy would probably kill a soldier first.
This equals out to a 6/7 wit unit that killed a 4 wit unit and cost 5 wits to kill.
Currently, it would be a 6/7 wit unit that needed 2 extra wits to kill a 4 wit unit and cost 5 wits to kill, which is almost even. Of course, it probably costs more if it was accompanied by a bramble because thorns would do the other 1 damage, and the thorns would be killed too. I think my point is is that it's more viable.
I hope that made sense

[[PETA] Cor13:4]

I think this change would be too drastic and actually benefit Adorables the most, because mobying a heavy would be insane now.

However, how about lowering the heavy cost to 3 wits, instead of 4?

[boyxoneder]

I like that idea too. Heavies just need a change