New Rating System

[Harti]

Unrelated to the discussion but still fitting the topic:

What I used to suggest back in beta was a screen where you could get approximate information about your progress.



That way you'd find yourself puzzled a lot fewer as you always know where you are.

[Kamikaze28]

(07-17-2012 03:40 AM)ArtNJ Wrote:  

(07-17-2012 03:05 AM)Kamikaze28 Wrote:  Even the oh so highly revered ELO system would suffer the same fate if it started without any prior knowledge. Just because you could see your rating fluctuate wildly in the first days does not mean that the matchmaking is any better.

That just isnt true. Twenty games is a ton under the ELO system. Nor can ELO be meaningfully manipulated.

ELO works fine if there are a lot of players already ranked to quickly determine the ranking for new players. But if you start from scratch, ELO takes just as long to sort everything out. By which I mean that the most highly skilled players arrive at the top and the worst players sink to the bottom.
No matter what ranking system you chose to compare the current model to, the fact remains, that all these systems are information-driven. Whether or not the current system processes the generated information better or worse than ELO or any other system is debatable.

The manipulability was not mentioned in this thread yet and since you cannot pick your opponents in Outwitters, I maintain that neither system can be manipulated.

[ArtNJ]

(07-17-2012 03:50 AM)Kamikaze28 Wrote:  ELO works fine if there are a lot of players already ranked to quickly determine the ranking for new players. But if you start from scratch, ELO takes just as long to sort everything out. By which I mean that the most highly skilled players arrive at the top and the worst players sink to the bottom.
No matter what ranking system you chose to compare the current model to, the fact remains, that all these systems are information-driven. Whether or not the current system processes the generated information better or worse than ELO or any other system is debatable.

The manipulability was not mentioned in this thread yet and since you cannot pick your opponents in Outwitters, I maintain that neither system can be manipulated.

Lets leave ELO alone because our views are not that different, and they just dont matter since ELO isnt coming here.

I mentioned manipulatability because its something that Alex has mentioned as a reason for not disclosing the League criteria/formula used in Outwitters. This is what is causing some unhappyness, and what I would like to see changed.

[nivra0]

But I just got promoted to Super-Titan, and now I rank #11. #1 ranking Zero_Killer has 1100 points!! I'm only at 342. I want to know how I compare to him skill wise, not how many more games/wins he's played than me.

Ah well, I guess we'll just have to organize some tourneys using friendly games.

[ihack4fun]

Reading this thread disappoints me. I was wondering if the divisions meant anything but after reading around it appears that don't. That means the only way to tell if ur "better" than someone is based on league but that doesn't give much. This morning I was considering buying the uber pack but now I don't think I'm even going to bother playing anymore since I'll never know my "rank" unless I make the top 100. An ELO system would definitely keep me playing bc then I could visibly move up spots (although this appears to be a moot point).

[Meph1ston]

To see how good you are they could also modify the current system. E.g there could be a lowet difference between losing and winning points so +30/-25 instead of +30/-20 so people wouldnt get so many points from eg 50% wins and a lot of games. Or you get +20/-20 but there is a bonus pool like in starcraft 2. Thats a pool creating eg 20 points a day and if u win, a amount of the bonuspool is added on top of the normal amount of points. Also a Super Mega Hyper Ninja Supersaiyajin (or however you wanna call it) could be implemented with the very best 100 players so you could better see how good u are.

[jaesonwu]

Can we stop talking about how points are meaningless and how we should have ELO to fix this? SC doesn't use ELO and yet the points are a generally good indication of skill provided you play something like 1 game a day or so.

Just add Bonus Pool and points will be MUCH closer to our hidden MMR. As for why we don't just exactly display hidden rating, other have already addressed that. Including the fact that oml didn't build the rating system with ELO in mind.

[ArtNJ]

It does seem to me that if the idea is to copy Starcraft, OML might as well go "all in". It seems Blizzard gave a lot of thought to how to build an ELO-alternative, and OML might as well take advantage of it.

To the extent OML has had trouble with the League stuff, it seems to be because the Blizzard formulas are unknown. Are the formulas for the bonus pool known? Havent followed the in depth discussions some folks have posted about the bonus pool, sorry if this was covered.

[onealexleft]

Some thoughts:

Bonus Pool
Would like to have it, as it would help in regards to a lot of the complaints I'm currently seeing and getting feedback on. Again, in due time.

League rankings
Ideally, if you were to take the top 10 of each super-titan division, you could shuffle them to different ST divisons and get a very similar result, with all of them still residing in mostly the top 10. This isn't happening right now because of point inflation, which I haven't handled yet. Again, a bonus pool helps in this regard as promotions wouldn't send you soaring automatically to the top of each division. You'd simply go back to the amount of bonus pool that is currently available (or some percentage of it) to give you a leg up on all the inactives and less experienced that are at the bottom rungs. An 'easy' fix is to reset your ladder points to 0 upon promotion/demotion. It sucks to lose all your points, and doesn't really reflect an accurate ranking.

League points
Right now there is a bias in winning. You win more points than you can lose. During beta this was needed to actually get points in the system! Otherwise, all ladders were mostly the #1 player with a few hundred, and everyone else at or close to 0. I think this problem arised because the small sample of players were all relatively even-matched, so removing the bias may not be an issue now. Regardless, this will most likely be changing in season 2.

[Syvan]

(08-07-2012 09:14 PM)ArtNJ Wrote:  Are the formulas for the bonus pool known?

The best resource is Excalibur_Z's SC2 ladder primer. Basically the bonus pool accrues slowly over time, but the pool matches points for point on each victory until it is depleted.