Enhancement request: dry-run mode

[Thrutchy]

OML, is it too late to ask for an enhancement that should improve the quality of game play? No rule changes.

Here is a synopsis of the enhancement: be able to do a turn dry-run that does not change the fog of war.

Here are some advantages of being able to us a feature like this:
* allows a player to visualize what there final planned position would be
* no more mistakes about miscounting wits
* should speed up plays because players can try their possible turns out visually rather than brain simulating them
* effectively gives the much requested "undo" feature

My thought on implementing this would be to have a button that puts you into a dry-run mode. The colors or graphics would be changed to designate this mode clearly. The turns could be played in this mode normally (but without confirmations). Plays could be rewound or advanced. You should be able to "commit" the dry-run turn up to a certain point and advance to the next play.

The biggest problem with this is when the turn includes attacking units in the fog. Here might be a few solutions:
* don't allow it in dry-run
* allow the player to specify the action into a fog hex when unclear - move (scrambled unit), attack, or kill
* allow the player to populate the fog the expected opponent units

Another issue to resolve is attacking vines since the parent-child relationship shouldn't be revealed with a dry-run. Here are a few solutions for this:
* don't allow it in dry-run
* gray out potential children of a killed parent. A unit can be moved on top of a potential child vine (with confirmation if necessary)
* allow the player to specify what vines are children of a killed parent
* allow the player to specify parent-child relationships up front

I assume something like this could be a paid feature.

[Mag!cGuy]

I don't see the problem of couting wits or brain simulating what will happen, it's the core of the game!

Plus, making it a paid feature would give a serious advantage to the ones who can afford this:

A lot of errors come from the fact the player didn't count his wits and didn't think enough his turn. Many players I help tell me "I knew it was bad once I did it." So, with this feature this game would become too easy, just play again and again until you like your move, without really thinking. Seeing a move is better than thinking about it to analyze what will happen, so it would remove the chess-like interest of this game.

And, alex/adam are only on TTL2 now, I highly doubt they will spend time on this, imo, unnecessary update!

[Spillblood]

Or do it alternatively: cut out a tracing paper over the map and start plotting moves like a general!

[Thrutchy]

(07-15-2013 01:44 AM)Mag!cGuy Wrote:  So, with this feature this game would become too easy, just play again and again until you like your move, without really thinking. Seeing a move is better than thinking about it to analyze what will happen, so it would remove the chess-like interest of this game.

I agree that it will be easier to make a high quality turn. Or it will take much less time to plan out the same quality of turn. The time spent planning a turn is what I care about more. At high-level play, this could help with burnout (what I'm approaching). Having a tool like I'm describing would probably increase the play level of even STs because more time would be spent on looking ahead multiple turns rather than primarily on the current turn.

In chess, each turn has only one move, but in outwitters a turn typically includes multiple plays, so it is more difficult than chess in that respect. Hero's academy is similar to outwitters with respect to this and does have the ability to easily try multiple possibilities for a turn. I'm a fan of this and I guess you aren't.

(07-15-2013 01:44 AM)Mag!cGuy Wrote:  And, alex/adam are only on TTL2 now, I highly doubt they will spend time on this

You are probably right.

(07-15-2013 01:51 AM)Spillblood Wrote:  Or do it alternatively: cut out a tracing paper over the map and start plotting moves like a general!

Yep. I like the analogy. What I'm talking about is one of many ways of plotting out moves, but I think it is the most usable. In addition to tracing on a paper, here are a few other ways:
* pass n play. This is very tedious to setup and try for each possibility.
* a separate app or website (like osn) where you could setup a scenario and try different turns. I suggested this to osn but he said this would be out of scope.
* simulation in your brain
* using generic hex grid paper on some generic hex grid software

[TheGoldenGriffin]

My thinking of dry run was like this:

(05-18-2013 11:38 PM)TheGoldenGriffin Wrote:  Instead of confirming every move, there could be a clear FoW button you could press anytime you want. So you could try moving units around but still be able to undo all of them because you didn't clear any of the FoW.

[Thrutchy]

(07-15-2013 08:45 AM)TheGoldenGriffin Wrote:  My thinking of dry run was like this:

(05-18-2013 11:38 PM)TheGoldenGriffin Wrote:  Instead of confirming every move, there could be a clear FoW button you could press anytime you want. So you could try moving units around but still be able to undo all of them because you didn't clear any of the FoW.

Yep, that sounds about the same as my first post in this thread. It has the same issues: results of attacks into the FoW or on thorns are not clear. Or were you proposing no attacks in this mode?

[bobolynx]

It would also let you have a "replay of your turn, in case you forget the specific position of a unit now hidden by fow

[TheGoldenGriffin]

(07-15-2013 12:10 PM)Thrutchy Wrote:  

(07-15-2013 08:45 AM)TheGoldenGriffin Wrote:  My thinking of dry run was like this:

(05-18-2013 11:38 PM)TheGoldenGriffin Wrote:  Instead of confirming every move, there could be a clear FoW button you could press anytime you want. So you could try moving units around but still be able to undo all of them because you didn't clear any of the FoW.

Yep, that sounds about the same as my first post in this thread. It has the same issues: results of attacks into the FoW or on thorns are not clear. Or were you proposing no attacks in this mode?

If you move a unit up to an enemy in the FoW, then you'd have to clear the FoW first to see it, and then you can attack it.

Attacking anything requires clearing the FoW.

[Thrutchy]

(07-15-2013 01:14 PM)bobolynx Wrote:  It would also let you have a "replay of your turn, in case you forget the specific position of a unit now hidden by fow

That's another enhancement, but I agree that is needed. IMO, the replay should just include the current turn. Bombshell splash damage into the FoW is the most frustrating because you only see that for a fraction of a second. Unlike my proposal in this thread which may be a bit controversial, this improvement seems like everybody would agree with.

(07-15-2013 07:01 PM)TheGoldenGriffin Wrote:  

(07-15-2013 12:10 PM)Thrutchy Wrote:  

(07-15-2013 08:45 AM)TheGoldenGriffin Wrote:  My thinking of dry run was like this:

(05-18-2013 11:38 PM)TheGoldenGriffin Wrote:  Instead of confirming every move, there could be a clear FoW button you could press anytime you want. So you could try moving units around but still be able to undo all of them because you didn't clear any of the FoW.

Yep, that sounds about the same as my first post in this thread. It has the same issues: results of attacks into the FoW or on thorns are not clear. Or were you proposing no attacks in this mode?

If you move a unit up to an enemy in the FoW, then you'd have to clear the FoW first to see it, and then you can attack it.

Attacking anything requires clearing the FoW.

"Clearing FoW" means committing to what you've done up to that point, right? So no attacks into FoW while in dry-run/frozen-FoW/undoable mode. That would work,but eliminate some planning (when you know or are fairly confident what is there). This also includes bombshell splash damage into the FoW. Thorn attacks with possible child thorns visible would not be allowed, right? I assume moving into the FoW would not be allowed either. Anything without an obvious result would not be allowed? That would simplify, but limit usefulness. Still a good enhancement.

I think you are also suggesting starting in a dry-run mode. I'd be ok with that, but you'll probably see backlash because it changes how people play now. I guess it could be a non-default option.

[TheGoldenGriffin]

I called it clear FoW cuz the discussion was about a solution to prevent using the suggested undo button to peek into the FoW and undo. But since the effect of the button is not limited to seeing whats in the FoW, the name should be changed.

The only way to move a unit into the FoW is to Mobi it there or grow thorn patches. If you want to move or grow something in the FoW, you'd have to see whats there, so the player would get a "you must confirm your moves before changing the FoW" message first.

Bombshell would still work normally because attacking confirms all moves so you wouldn't be able to undo anyway

Killing a mother thorn patch would require attacking and therefore confirming all moves so killing thorn parch chains would work like it works now