"Heavy" isn't worth the costs

[calmon]

Like the topic says this thread is for discussing unit balance in outwitters.

I think after a lot of played titan matches I've a very good feeling which unit is needed in which situation. For me nearly every unit is useable. But one unit lacks usability and is only build in situations very rarely occurs: The Heavy.

Main problem is the fact that 1 damage more and 1 health more (compared to soldier) is good on paper but the disadvantage of only moving 2 cancels out this bonus nearly completely.

The movement 2 is such a big disadvantage:

- it costs more wits to reach opponents base/bonus with heavy compared to soldier (and it takes longer time)
- it can be outmanovered easily
- even in defense its mainly only good when opponent sit exactly besides your spawnplace and have exactly 3 health. Most other cases runner/soldier/sniper defend better for the costs

In moment I mass soldier and for sure build the other units as well but don't touch the Heavy in 98% of my games. My opponents use it very rarely. I usually be very happy seing it built on opponents side!

My suggestion would be to make him 3 wits. Not sure it was 3 in beta but I really can't believe this would be overpowered in any way (on the contrary it may underpowered nevertheless). I would still go for soldiers because of range but may mix some heavy in.

Discuss.

[Syvan]

I feel like the problem is more that soldiers are too useful. A buffed soldier can't be one-shot, so it is expensive to attack into a soldier wall. They do reasonable enough damage, and if you are using them to defend, they are going to be able to apply pressure much faster and more cheaply on a counter-attack than a sniper or heavy. I feel like their health is 1 point too high. Starting at 2 would allow them to trade and a buffed soldier would be 1-shot by heavies or snipers.

But yeah, it seems that in most cases massing soldiers with a little ranged support is best.

[oneadamleft]

This is one that's been on my mind after watching some of the Super Titan replays. Not sure what will be done, if anything, but we'll be looking into it.

[swimj]

I think the biggest benefit is that a boosted heavy has 5hp, so if your opponent wants to take it in one turn it will take either soldier+heavy, soldier+soldier+runner, heavy+runner+runner, or sniper with some similar combination. On defense, as sniper is likely not in play for your opponent (unless there is a mobi), having that heavy gives a bit of insurance on holding key spots that can only be attacked from a few angles.

It is also a really good defense for the shell, especially if you're playing on a map which has holes (sharkfood, glitch, even blitz beach for 2v2s) to place the shell where it can only be attacked from one hex if the shell is defended with a correctly placed heavy.

I definitely prefer soldiers on offense though, and would definitely take two soldiers over one heavy and one runner, despite that they are all 4 damage total.

[Joggies]

I couldn't agree more with OP. I had been thinking exactly the same thing for some time now.

Even if heavies cost 3, I would still buy more soldiers and scouts. The two movement points makes them too costly to move forward. And even under pressure in defence I would usually opt for a sniper instead.

[Harti]

Having Heavies deal 4 damage would basically do the job but probably make them overpowered, especially when predeployed.

[calmon]

(08-04-2012 09:56 PM)Harti Wrote:  Having Heavies deal 4 damage would basically do the job but probably make them overpowered, especially when predeployed.

I like this idea! 4 damage would be a very good solution.

I also agree with the predeployed units. I would just exchange them with a cheaper unit.

[Joggies]

(08-04-2012 09:56 PM)Harti Wrote:  especially when predeployed.

Your point on predeployment is an important factor, more so on smaller maps.

But deployed units aside, I don't believe that an extra attack power would make them overpowered. Even with an extra hit point to boot, they would only just tempt me to occasionally invest. It would probably be just enough to make it worth trying to drive the tank to the finish line... On larger maps perhaps not even then.

I would definitely go down the buffing route than cheapening them. It has the advantage of reducing the concern over turtling. (Which itself is a function of the fact that its usually not worth spending too many points to wage a war near your opponents spawn points)

[wonderpug]

What if heavies spawned with 5hp?

[Alvendor]

(08-04-2012 11:39 PM)wonderpug Wrote:  What if heavies spawned with 5hp?

Probably not desirable as it would strengthen any turtling strategies.

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(08-04-2012 10:01 PM)calmon Wrote:  

(08-04-2012 09:56 PM)Harti Wrote:  Having Heavies deal 4 damage would basically do the job but probably make them overpowered, especially when predeployed.

I like this idea! 4 damage would be a very good solution.

I also agree with the predeployed units. I would just exchange them with a cheaper unit.

Like it as well, it would counter mass soldiers and also any slow pushing with bombshells.

How do you mean it would make it overpowered when predeployed? Any examples?