Counter to turtling

[uaq]

Turtling seems to be a common strategy in the current metagame. As dull as it is, I am not unhappy about people employing this. If it helps them beat their opponent then power to them.

I would however like to discuss some counter strategies to turtling. I have a friend that I constantly have two games going with, and he has discovered he can win by turtling. So he does it every game. It is so incredibly dull to play a game for 80 turns where no base attacking has happened. Knowing I'm likely going to lose. I've tried to bolster up an attack group to break his ranks, but I always get severely punished for it.

This is the counter turtling thread, I hope we can come up with some strategies to balance out the meta game a little, and help me beat my friend again.

[nivra0]

Post replays for advice

[Sakiehl]

Yes please, would love some strategies to go against soldier walls in particular. My best bet so far is to save up 15 or so wits and attack one of the flank sides. Hopefully the opponent will only have 6 wits or so to counter attack with.

Surely there is a better approach though. Maybe combining saved up wits with a scrambler? Mobi doesn't seem to make much of a dent without losing him and the bombshell has to sit out of range to stay safe.

[1pal0]

Can I ask in which league and ranking are you playing? Because I've played almost 80-90 games and just met once a player doing turtling. Honestly, I don't want to move to the next league if that's what it's waiting for me, just boring games instead of exciting attacks and counterattacks.

[ArtNJ]

Specials are very important to break turtles and/or prevent them from forming.

Bombshell kills turtles no matter how fortified, if you keep it safe.

Scrambler can break modest turtles, particularly on small maps where you can flood to one side or the other backed by the Scrambler (Sharkfood!). Scrambler is useless if you let your opponent get ranks of soldiers 2-3 deap on a map like Peekaboo. Your probably going to lose that game unless your opponent is also Feedback.

Mobi is good for breaking turtles of all varieties too

[Sakiehl]

In super-titan I would say maybe 1 out of every 15 or so games ends up turtled. Not a huge deal but those games are kind of boring.

How do you use Mobi to break through a turtle? I've had no luck sending soldiers in and then jumping them back. Do you launch snipers into battle and then try and surround both the Mobi and the sniper?

The problem I've found with Mobi is either a scrambler or a bombshell will stop have little problem taking him out if he attacks. If I saved up to get a Mobi there is a high chance he saved up to get a special also.

[Syvan]

(08-04-2012 01:39 AM)ArtNJ Wrote:  Specials are very important to break turtles and/or prevent them from forming.

Bombshell kills turtles no matter how fortified, if you keep it safe.

Scrambler can break modest turtles, particularly on small maps where you can flood to one side or the other backed by the Scrambler (Sharkfood!). Scrambler is useless if you let your opponent get ranks of soldiers 2-3 deap on a map like Peekaboo. Your probably going to lose that game unless your opponent is also Feedback.

Mobi is good for breaking turtles of all varieties too

I mostly agree with you, specials are critical. But on small maps if the first player starts with the intention of turtling with bombshells, the game is all but over. They can effectively defend and eventually start a slow moving siege tank push. Player 2 cannot equitably attack into the defenses or even get accurate scouting information in many cases.

Also, Peekaboo is too simple a map. There is essentially one viable attack route unless something weird happens. Once this is locked down, attacking is almost out of the question. Sure a well timed Scrambler can help, but at best you will spend a ton of wit to essentially trade a scrambler for a bombshell on their side of the map. On a map like Glitch or Sharkfood, there are at least a couple ways you can push the base.

I really do think the reason we aren't seeing more turtling is because it is more fun to have action, so the first player is often making something happen, which in turn leads to games that are much more fun.

One last thing: I don't think Mobi's are good at breaking turtles. It is already expensive to operate a mobi, since you need to spend an extra wit to move things and attacking into the turtle is already expensive. I have a couple replays where I try to break a turtle with a mobi and it goes very, very badly. It is much more useful to use an alternate attack path with a mobi, since you can essentially re-form your army around the mobi while the defender needs to spend a bunch of wit to change position.

[wonderpug]

I think the "send in a soldier then jump back" technique is usually counterproductive (but occasionally smart). You're spending a wit on the recall to Mobi, then several more to move the soldier to the front line. Unless it lets you get a critical kill, opens up a path for other units, or some other decisive act, you're probably better off just spawning more units and letting the soldier be disposable.

I think Mobi is much more useful in turtling situations as a pure troop carrier. No fancy tricks. Just keep moving heavies and snipers to the front line where you're making your push, and slowly work your way forward. It may take a while, but you'll be bringing more firepower to that battle zone than your non-Mobi opponent would be able to, and you'll eventually win the war of attrition.

On maps with two spawn points, Mobi lets you send twice as many troops to a front than your opponent can. On maps with one, it lets you quickly get slow troops to the front, either to press on a side far from your spawn point, or to let push on your opponent's spawn point and get reinforcements to the fight as quickly as he can from his spawn point.

Even on small maps he can be awesome. Take Sharkfood Island. Sure, the map is tiny, but think how often you see snipers defending areas near the base. It'd take 7 wits just to get one up there, but once Mobi gets in place you can do it once a turn for just 1 wit. Even heavies need 3-4 wits to get to the top of the map without Mobi. If you keep Mobi safe and just keep using him as your shortcut, you're going to (eventually) end up in a situation where your opponent is bringing a knife to your gun fight.

Obviously an entrenched Bombshell or hidden Scrambler complicates things, but Mobi is still your best ticket for digging into a turtle if you're Adorable.

[ArtNJ]

Against a heavily entrenched turtle wit a Mobi, the troop carrier idea is all you got. Save a wit or two a turn, get into attack position and exhaust the defense which takes longer to get there. Might not be enough if there is a Bombshell against you, and a scrambler with enough extra wits saved can be dangerous too.

If the turtle is still modest, a Mobi might help you crash through.

[Alvendor]

I see almost no pure turtling strategies in the games I play, but I still share the worry that optimal strategies might be much more defensive than is used today. Some random thoughts:

There are several dynamics at work. The first one to attack has an advantage as he is the first to remove some of the opponents units. Another advantage is that the attacker can choose which part of the map to attack and concentrate his forces there. He can also choose at what time to attack and make sure he has enough wits. The attacker has an advantage in that he can threaten bonus squares/base while the defender generally can't. The defender has an advantage in that it is cheaper to fight closer to your own spawn point. Maps where the defenders advantage is bigger than the attackers will lead to these "boring" turtle strategies.

To threaten the bonus square is the natural response to a turtling opponent. If its fairly close to one of your spawning points (or you play as adorables) you can force him to attack you by getting a sniper in range of the bonus square. It might be enough to get in splash range with a bombshell four squares away.

I saw earlier people complaining about how to fight several shelled bombshells but I think that is the wrong question to ask. That's like asking how to counter mass carriers in Starcraft 1. The answer is you don't let your opponent get several carriers/bombshells. The weak point is just after the bombshell has moved into position and sieged up. The opponent has just spent 11 wits to create the bombshell, move it, siege, and move two other units in front of it to block you from attacking. If your are in a position so you can kill the bombshell with less than 11 wits you are trading favorably.

Finally, a preemptive an apology to the people I use to play with. I think I will try a couple of games with a lot of turtling just to see how it plays out