Turtling Discussion

[Syvan]

(08-01-2012 09:15 AM)stevewastaken Wrote:  No thoughts on the issues regarding my replay?

Can we at least agree that Bombshell shouldn't be able to Unshell and Reshell in the same turn? This essentially makes Bombshell a permanent 4HP unit if you just spend an extra wit or 2. Especially considering no other unit in the game is allowed multiple actions per turn like Bombshell is.

That turn you built a second medic you were in position to do what you did on the next turn, but before he built that second bombshell. I'm not entirely sure why you built a second medic and then buffed both of them. Seems to have been a waste especially when you know he cannot pressure you.

I'm not sure the bombshell's move mechanic is broken, I think I've only seen a bombshell move once and it's really expensive to move around. I think the problem is more that peekaboo really only has one viable attack path, which is quite easy to fortify.

[worldfamous]

(08-01-2012 09:15 AM)stevewastaken Wrote:  No thoughts on the issues regarding my replay?

Can we at least agree that Bombshell shouldn't be able to Unshell and Reshell in the same turn? This essentially makes Bombshell a permanent 4HP unit if you just spend an extra wit or 2. Especially considering no other unit in the game is allowed multiple actions per turn like Bombshell is.

At a cost of 3 wits and no ability to attack until the next turn, I'd say they got it right.

[stevewastaken]

@Syvan
You might be right about my medic play. But I'm NOT saying I played perfectly, while my opponent made mistakes that were compensated by an OP Bombshell. We both made mistakes throughout the game. My point is that at the time I made my attack on his turtled formation, we were basically even. Yet despite my attacking first (in the strongest way I can fathom), he came out ahead in the exchange.

In fact that's the whole point of turtling. To force your opponent to lose more than he gains by attacking you. And it's a tedious and unfun way to play the game. Turtling should not be rewarded to the extent that it is, and the way to correct this is to reward non-defensive play (putting bonus wit spaces in contestable areas of the map), and reduce the power of the tools used to turtle (nerf Bombshell).

@worldfamous
Unless you consider that when turtled, it is extremely easy to horde wits. 3 is nothing. And in a turtle vs. turtle scenario, a successfully advanced Bombshell will do devastating damage to an opponents turtle wall (or force an evacuation of a key area). Also while turtled, you often can't see the Bombshell, as it operates behind a wall of units. So you don't know for sure if your opponent has advanced his Bombshell or not.

[Syvan]

I know. That is a much shorter version of my first post in this thread. It is more costly to attack than defend in almost every scenario especially once bombshells are deployed. And as you reiterate, no way to punish a turtle on several maps.

I do think bombshells are fine though. The problem is more that several of the maps are too small for accurately placed bombshells and is magnified on Peekaboo since there is only 1 place that really needs to be defended.

[stevewastaken]

@worldfamous cont.
Also think about how the "can't attack till next turn" mechanic works. It means that if no attack is happening, the Bombshell player can assess that the advancement is safe, and do it (ready to fire at any counter next turn). If it isn't safe, he won't unshell/advance/reshell in the first place.

[CombatEX]

I still think your forward wit point is more important than any changes to the bombshell. Maps can be changed to make turtling less rewarding and as a result make bombshells worse without a direct nerf. Simply having larger maps and/or placing wit spaces further from bases will make bombshells less effective since it's harder to cover both the base and wit spaces with map changes like this.

[nivra0]

(08-01-2012 10:24 AM)stevewastaken Wrote:  @Syvan
You might be right about my medic play. But I'm NOT saying I played perfectly, while my opponent made mistakes that were compensated by an OP Bombshell. We both made mistakes throughout the game. My point is that at the time I made my attack on his turtled formation, we were basically even. Yet despite my attacking first (in the strongest way I can fathom), he came out ahead in the exchange.

You were not even. He had slowly built up a wit advantage over the course of the game.

You also didn't bank enough wits before your attack, so your attack was incomplete with lots of units not having moved.

[NathanDetr0it]

(08-03-2012 04:14 AM)nivra0 Wrote:  You also didn't bank enough wits before your attack

That half-sentence is almost single-handedly fueling my journey upward.

[nivra0]

(08-03-2012 04:40 AM)NathanDetr0it Wrote:  

(08-03-2012 04:14 AM)nivra0 Wrote:  You also didn't bank enough wits before your attack

That half-sentence is almost single-handedly fueling my journey upward.

LOL. It sure makes a difference if you have enough wits to move all your units, hmm?

[swimj]

(07-27-2012 05:24 PM)stevewastaken Wrote:  outwitters://viewgame?id=ag5vdXR3aXR0ZXJzZ2FtZXIQCxIIR2FtZVJvb20YoMhhDA

(Keep in mind: from what my opponent says in his chat, he's not a frequent turtler. Which I believe, as there are several times where he could have utilized his Bombshells for even more damage than they already do.)

-I see his turtle supported by a Bombshell extremely early, and I try to play catch up. I get my own turtle up to counter any big push, and because it is too dangerous to push any closer to the Bombshell.

-My catch-up takes a bit of time, and I'm almost certain he has 2 Bombshells by this point. (He doesn't yet, but he will soon).

-I know that the thicker the turtle gets, the more advantage the Bombshell gains, so as soon as I get 2 Scramblers into position (my only hope to break through and hit the Bombshell), I attack.

TURN 21: Look close and you'll see we not only have the same number of units, but almost the exact same types of units as well. (I have one more medic, he has one more scout). This is a near perfect example.

-Even in hindsight I can't imagine putting together a stronger attack. I guess if I left the scout alone and didn't heal the Heavy, I could have attacked with 1 more soldier, but not for a kill.
______
So in the exchange, even though I strike first, I lose 2 Special units (14 wits). My opponent only loses 2 Soldiers and a Special (11 wits). Yes, I do gain those 2 soldiers, but at 1hp they should have been cake to remove. Yes, that does still take 2 wits, but it's also easier to replace 2 soldiers over time than it is to save up for a new Special unit.

More important than the wit exchange, is that there's no other attack I can conceive of that crosses a 3(4) hex danger zone, breaks through a 4hp wall, to then do another 4hp. Because no unit hits harder than 3. So how are you supposed to break it? Trading 2 Special units for 1 Special and 2 Soldiers seems to be the best I can hope for.

I hardly ever play feedback so perhaps some other users may share better strategies, but two scramblers certainly wasn't necessary. When you had one scrambler+your front most soldier guarding it, you could have scrambled one soldier, attack shell, move scrambled soldier back towards your base, then use your own 4 hp soldier to fill the gap and finish the shell. At least this way it's 1 for 1 in terms of special units, right?