Bramble overnerfed

PowerCrazy · 03-30-2013, 12:25 AM

(03-29-2013 11:00 AM)Ja Karta Wrote: How's this for a solution:
Heavies cost 3 wits, instead of 4
Bramble is v3
?

(I actually suspect this would make far more boring games in general, but I'm surprised I haven't even seen it discussed that perhaps heavy's cost (which is very high) should be changed rather than bramble.)

The heavy has been unbalanced since the game first came out. They are too expensive, and unless you are the adorables, it's rarely worth it to build them.

TheGreatAnt · 03-30-2013, 12:32 AM

(03-30-2013 12:25 AM)PowerCrazy Wrote:
(03-29-2013 11:00 AM)Ja Karta Wrote: How's this for a solution:
Heavies cost 3 wits, instead of 4
Bramble is v3
?

(I actually suspect this would make far more boring games in general, but I'm surprised I haven't even seen it discussed that perhaps heavy's cost (which is very high) should be changed rather than bramble.)

The heavy has been unbalanced since the game first came out. They are too expensive, and unless you are the adorables, it's rarely worth it to build them.

Well, I was forced to use them a lot more against bramble thorns at 3hp. But now that they are down at 2hp, my focus again is soldiers, and I spawn only for heavypower defense.

bobolynx · 03-30-2013, 03:17 AM

I think ja karat meant put them back up to 3 and have heavy cost 1 less

laYahooz · 03-30-2013, 04:45 AM

(03-29-2013 10:24 AM)Gavin Wins Wrote: And the results are in:

outwitters://viewgame?id=ag5vdXR3aXR0ZXJzZ2FtZXIRCxIIR2FtZVJvb20Y4d2VAww

Yeah a close game with good special usage by both players. adorables had initiative as P1 and were cleverly able to power though. Veggies were able to counter but couldn't hold off on the initiative. Great game.

But it doesn't prove bramble is under powered at all. Doesn't prove anything. It shows he can compete easily. Also you have been playing with adorables for a while. Your obviously great with them. Blckace has only played veggies in probably less than 10 games. Not to mention he has been playing with the new veggies for less time.

Quite balanced if you ask me Smile

1ucky · 04-03-2013, 10:31 AM

Saw this coming.
This bramble is insanely weak. Unplayable.
Just get rid of wit/return, you'll see that it won't be that strong.

Null · 04-03-2013, 12:17 PM

(03-30-2013 04:45 AM)laYahooz Wrote:
(03-29-2013 10:24 AM)Gavin Wins Wrote: And the results are in:

outwitters://viewgame?id=ag5vdXR3aXR0ZXJzZ2FtZXIRCxIIR2FtZVJvb20Y4d2VAww

Yeah a close game with good special usage by both players. adorables had initiative as P1 and were cleverly able to power though. Veggies were able to counter but couldn't hold off on the initiative. Great game.

But it doesn't prove bramble is under powered at all. Doesn't prove anything. It shows he can compete easily. Also you have been playing with adorables for a while. Your obviously great with them. Blckace has only played veggies in probably less than 10 games. Not to mention he has been playing with the new veggies for less time.

Quite balanced if you ask me

I could say the same for last version of bramble. I was to comepete against it just fine. Lost some, won some. I think the adorable users want bramble weaker than other users do.

Id like to see them just get rid of the bonus wit for killing a thorn, the + wit is for killing characters, you didnt kill bramble, plus it helps with bombshells loading up with extra wits, free kills plus sometimes + 1 to 3 wits is crazy for shell.
Bramble and scrambler are easily the two weakest

PowerCrazy · 04-03-2013, 04:45 PM

(03-30-2013 04:45 AM)laYahooz Wrote:
(03-29-2013 10:24 AM)Gavin Wins Wrote: And the results are in:

outwitters://viewgame?id=ag5vdXR3aXR0ZXJzZ2FtZXIRCxIIR2FtZVJvb20Y4d2VAww

Yeah a close game with good special usage by both players. adorables had initiative as P1 and were cleverly able to power though. Veggies were able to counter but couldn't hold off on the initiative. Great game.

But it doesn't prove bramble is under powered at all. Doesn't prove anything. It shows he can compete easily. Also you have been playing with adorables for a while. Your obviously great with them. Blckace has only played veggies in probably less than 10 games. Not to mention he has been playing with the new veggies for less time.

Quite balanced if you ask me

Gavin is a good player, but his "counter" to the bramble was soldier spam. He didn't have to adjust his strategy at all. I'd wager he would probably have been able to win with any race and just not spawning the super unit vs veggies.

Anyway as has been said since the v1 bramble, the bramble was fine, all it needed was a small boost, regenerating thorns and the ability to withdraw them for free would have been great. By allowing the thorns to attack you risk making them either too powerful, or useless like the currently are. Remove the ability to attack and remove the wit/kill. Now you have a good super unit that requires thought to use effectively.

ElPared · 04-03-2013, 05:04 PM

I've said it before but I think 3HP and retracting for free is perfect. No wit for killing them always bugged me. I'm so used to getting wits for killing things that I forget to factor in the fact I didn't get a wit for a thorn into my turn "math"

3 HP + retract + regenerate would be ideal for me. All of those is probably OP, but I think regenerate is the tech against Scallywags as the other teams would likely just kill them in 1 hit with snipers or heavies while scallys are the only ones who would really hit them for 1 damage and nothing else.

I really don't think attacking thorns is necessary though. It ruined veggies for me, even at 2HP. They were so much more fun in V2, I just wished they could retract thorns

Necrocat219 · (06-09-2014 02:14 PM)

I don't think that the Bramble will be fiddled with anymore, considering its impossible to balance 4 specials with completely different functions and different ways of being efficient its fair to say that we've come very close to a balanced Bramble, at the moment I feel no effect in my games for or against the bramble but I feel they will probably still lag behind adorables a little. However that isn't a bad thing; the fundamental design of the Bramble making walls has the inherit ability to make games slower and more tedious; however it also has another side affect for both players in that with the much greater number of possibilities of moves with and against the bramble in close matchups it will often give the slightly better player the chance to always overcome their opponent if they make no major mistake and only a inherit mistakes.

But back to the the nature of the Bramble, as we saw 3hp created a very slow and tedious game. This shouldn't have actually have been so bad to play against; a perfect example is pre wit per kill Scallywags were the 'best' team (although top 10 team usage disagreed). However there was ~~never a fuss~~ no large scale rage about them as there was always easy fast decisions that could be made each turn, speeding games up. However with the Bramble it also has the added massive amount of variables; there are just a ridiculous amount of potential moves a Veggie player can do, and also in retaliation. This led to a game where veggies were faced with easy turns to make while every turn for the opposition was forced which was a problem.

However, now veggies still give the opponent a while slew of options to think about. This time they are slightly imbalanced though (not underpowered but a little tone down) but at almost all levels of play I predict that due to the immediate increase in difficulty for the opponent of the veggie in choosing their optimal move (I know a lot of top players including me sometimes are pretty OCD about this) they will only be 'imbalanced' at the very top level play - top 50 or so. Unlike Adorables who are so efficient that at lower levels you can pick them up and immediately boost your play, the requirement of a skilled opponent to take advantage of the bramble makes it balanced at the majority of play (wanted to put 99% but that would be stupid).

TLDR: The bramble's design naturally makes games last much longer and increase both players possible decisions, making games more tedious which would not make them healthy to risk being the strongest race. However they should stay in their current state as the veggie's opponent has a large amount of difficult choices and predictions they have to make, making it hard to make the optimal moves against the bramble in all but the very very top levels of play, in a sense 'balancing' it.

TheGoldenGriffin · 04-05-2013, 12:33 PM

(03-27-2013 04:37 AM)TheGoldenGriffin Wrote: What about thorn patches can't attack but it can inflict 1 damage to any unit that physically attacks it? So units like soldiers, heavies, and scramblers get pricked by the thorns but units like snipers and bombshells don't cuz they're attacking at a distance. That way, Bramble can't go thorn patch spamming and kill your medics and snipers.

This seems really fair.